EP215: Sales Artisans: Thriving Alongside Smart Bots
This episode wraps up our conversation with Corey Frank, Chris Beall, and Shane Mahi. Throughout this series, the guys have delved into the profound impact of AI on sales, the evolving role of human expertise, and the transformative potential of AI in reshaping businesses. They muse on the future interplay of AI and the craft of sales. Corey champions niches – and the need to summon specialists. And we, the artisans, must elevate our skills. Chris predicts more earthshaking disruption for software developers than sellers. And Shane sounds warnings that agencies lean heavily on human effort today. Soon enough AI shall permeate their ranks.
Our craft endures turbulent seas, yet we shall reach new fortunes with nimble navigation. Mine your own insights from these philosophic titans who’ve logged countless hours of bold outreach fueled by devotion to their calling. Stay tuned for part 3, where they unveil actionable guidance to navigate what’s next for our noble profession. “EP215: Sales Artisans: Thriving Alongside Smart Bots.”
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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
Corey Frank (00:58:09):
Yeah, it is, it is. I would argue the counter to that, it’s not really counter, it’s more of a pivot. As we said Chris many times, Russell Brunson, one of his books he wrote, says, the riches are in the niches and I believe there will always be a need for specialists. When you have a specialized software that requires not just a transaction but a relationship when folks care about their brand, you will have a niche. I’m a big believer in Plato or Aristotle, et cetera. The unexamined life is not worth living. And so when a person or a salesperson does this, the whole purpose of Flight School in a lot of ways is when they don’t examine their life to find their true self or their excellence of function, they’re ignoring their true self. And part of what we do certainly at Branch49, certainly Chris, what you do at Flight School, Shane, what you’ve taught with a lot of your organizations is that sales is a craft and just like being a writer for the New Yorker, it’s a craft.
(00:59:30):
Being a tradesman is a craft and there’s a lot of crappy bricklayers out there and there’s a lot of artesian bricklayers out there. And so I believe that there will always be a market for those that see that this is a mastercraft Shane. One of the stories that we talk all about here at Branch49 is a guy walks past the construction site and sees five guys laying bricks. Greg Chriss wrote the story many, many times. First guy, what are you doing? He’s like, I’m making six bucks an hour. Go to the second guy, what are you doing? He’s like, I’m building a wall, goes to the third guy. What are you doing? And he’s like, I’m building a cathedral and goes to the fourth guy and say, what are you doing? He’s like, I’m saving men’s souls. So the last two folks, the people who see I’m building a cathedral or I’m saving men, souls are the ones that you want on your team versus the ones that are building a wall or making six bucks an hour.
(01:00:28):
There’s a lot of folks in our profession who will leverageChatGPT to say, “Hey, I’m making five bucks an hour but I’m making 30% margin versus I’m making six bucks an hour and I’m making 5% margin.” So those folks who will see this as an efficiency game without a corresponding increase in the delivery of the service, they’re the ones that I think will fall by the wayside. I think there will always be a market for the higher end and part of our purpose at Branch49 is to create these organizations where folks can move out into the world and be truthsayers, be the pinnacle of their communities and their craft. We know that folks don’t leave Branch49. We say they graduate from Branch49 and that was part of the intention of starting this with Chris’s inspiration and I think we celebrate our fourth year coming up here. Chris, it’s crazy. It’s been four years already and how many millions of phone calls and I dunno how many hundreds of thousands of meetings, but that’s my response to that and part of that is tree hugging certainly to be sure what we are doing? We’re going to be the best damn buggy whip people that there are on the face of the earth. Even when there’s a sparse number of horses in the city, we’re still going to be selling these buggy whips come hell or head water.
Chris Beall (01:02:02):
Well actually I think that one of the ideas of Branch 49 was let’s take everything that’s skills and stance focused around sales and apply it to a wider range of so that the development of the craft and the codification of how to develop as a professional in the craft can be advanced. And it really wasn’t about cold calling and it wasn’t about follow-up calling. It was about discovery. And in the world of discovery, discovery is going to be in the information sense. Discovery already happens all over the place. Google’s provided tons of discovery and ChatGPT provides even more, although it’s getting more and more reluctant to answer your specific questions, it knows it’s hallucinating. So that’s actually by the way, a problem with LLMs and these large language models in general is they’re always going to hallucinate the idea that they’re not going to hallucinate is actually mathematically absurd.
(01:03:05):
If you know how they work, they’ll hallucinate. Guess what people do too? How do people correct their hallucinations? They interact with the world, other people and objects in the world in ways that discipline their hallucinations and cause them to correct. By the way, ChatGPT does this, you correct it and then say, oh, I’m so sorry I didn’t get whatever, and then it’ll do its thing again, the thing is it’s very patient and it’s not insulted by rework which human beings tend to be right. So coming up with something that automates initial outreach is going to be interesting, but it’s also going to be fairly temporary because it’s actually not a necessary part of the solution over long periods of time. It just is right now we have to get a hold of people who are doing whatever they’re doing and interrupt them because all the other ways of getting started seem to be broken.
(01:04:02):
By the way, conferences travel and going to conferences, which was hurt badly in COVID are coming back and conferences are far superior to cold calling with regard to forging new relationships and getting going in conversations. They’re just a lot more expensive. So will they survive? Absolutely. Will cold calling survive in the niches? Absolutely. Will discovery become more important with regard to skill and sincerity? Absolutely. And is it going to be a world that doesn’t have human experts? No. The idea of the human expert is, look, this large language model has got a certain number of artificial neurons. Compare that to what’s inside of each one of us here and everybody who’s listening to this, you’re off by a factor of a trillion or so. You’re off by a lot. You’re so much more sophisticated in your internal ability that you’re not able to actually observe. It just happens.
(01:05:08):
And by the way, so is your dog if you have one, right? Your dog is smarter than ChatGPT, it just doesn’t type and it doesn’t read the entire internet, so it doesn’t appear to be smarter. But if your dog had read the entire internet and could tippy type with its little dog paws, then you’d go, oh my dog’s a genius. No, it’s still a dog and it’s making geniuses and being able to smell what somebody intends for it. Good or bad. Dogs are really good at that. Humans are good at it in a different way. Again, this whole ethics thing, by the way to me, is like a non-conversation. Everybody’s excited about it. Everybody’s been told to be afraid of it. It’s like there was no new ethics around guns. You still can’t just walk up to somebody and shoot ’em and it’s okay just because easier or cheaper, it’s still wrong. And ethics is about what’s right and what’s wrong and the things that are wrong are still wrong. Lying to somebody about who you are or what your intentions are in business or in life is wrong. We’re done with the ethics discussion.
Shane Mahi (01:06:19):
Alright, so let’s ask this one then. Let’s throw this one in there. There’s a point right now where I believe 80 to 90% of all outbound agencies or inbound agencies are heavily dependent on human labor. Now there’s small, let’s just call it this, it’s all human right now, but then there’s small components that are being driven by technology, independent research, human research, ChatGPT research that can effectively, a robot can take that place. So at what point does this happen where you’ve got human heavy businesses where AI can then start filling a lot of those roles very, very, very fast and it will happen over the course of the years. At what point do you stop competing with the AI and saying, we’re going to stay focused on human have a little bit and do you get to a point where it’s even, or do you get to a point where it’s so heavily AI, robotic agent orientated where there’s not really a need for that many humans and then there is only
Chris Beall (01:07:23):
You get to a different point: executive team and a few leaders.
Shane Mahi (01:07:24):
What do you think about that?
Chris Beall (01:07:28):
You get to a point where it actually reshapes skyscrapers that didn’t show up in small county seats in Iowa, right? Even though you could build ’em, they just don’t show up there. They show up in, well, first in Manhattan, right? Why? Because UP was cheaper than out. That’s why. And square footage fits in up better than it fits in out. So there was a ratio of footprint and you might’ve said, well, it’s absurd, right? What was the enabling technology by the way? The safety elevator. The safety brake on an elevator. So when elevator cables snapped, you didn’t fall to your death. That’s actually what enabled that revolution.
(01:08:14):
The economy always gets reshaped around new capabilities in ways that surprise everybody who is thinking about it. So it’s never like that. This is going up and this is going down and it crosses or whatever. It goes along as it goes along with increasing efficiencies in certain areas until somebody innovates a flip and the flip turns it on its head and now it’s new, whatever the new thing is, and now you have the old way competing with the new way and the new way since it’s enabled by new material science. By that I mean a new capability that does tricks you couldn’t do before. It always wins, but it always starts where it has the obvious advantage. The skyscrapers are not out in the desert, they’re in Manhattan. It depends where you look, but once you get ’em going in Manhattan, I pretty much guarantee you the little three story building that you used to have that you had some offices in or whatever. First the offices go, then the condos and it’s all skyscrapers. Take a look at New York. It’s all up, right? Take a look at Des Moines. It’s a little up. Take a look at Scottsdale or Tenny. It’s just how it goes.
Shane Mahi (01:09:35):
You can even see in Dubai, Dubai was what? Flatland desert. DJ Khalifa Burj Khallifa is the biggest one up. And now, I don’t know if you guys are familiar with the line in Saudi Arabia, same kind of concept, complete desert. Now there’s what, a quarter mile long, two pieces of glass inside a metropolis that is going to be heavily tech-orientated, flying cars, all kinds of weirdness. So if Saudi’s doing stuff like that, at what point do the outbound agencies or even tech companies realize we’ve got to kind of adopt the same kind of thing?
Chris Beall (01:10:08):
For sure.
Shane Mahi (01:10:08):
Who is that going to be? Chris, Chris and Corey. Who do you guys have your eyes out on in those markets who are going to be those game changers, those market shapers for AI and tech in our space?
Chris Beall (01:10:22):
Who I don’t know. I don’t know and I don’t care. I don’t know and I don’t care. I know who the big early winner is going to be with ai. This is actually fairly simple. Microsoft pulled off a trick that nobody even thought of and that trick was to invest 10 billion to get an unlimited royalty free forever license to not only the tech, but all the learning that goes into it, all the training. That was a very good trick because they’ve always been in the business of helping folks build new things. And the most obvious thing about all this gen AI stuff isn’t what it does to sales, which is trivial. It’s what it does to what used to be called software development. Software development essentially is in the same state right now as a sugar cube is in a hot cup of tea. You can be pretty sure that game is over right now.
(01:11:18):
The sugar cube is just getting a little rounded on the edges, but you don’t have to be a genius to figure out where that one’s going because Shane and Corey and even Chris Beall can develop something that’s a new capability in the world using gen AI in 1000th of the time and cost. And in fact, it’s even more than that because I’m going to ask you, Shane, if I asked you to develop a GPT-4 model from scratch, and I’m going to give you as your tools a Python runtime environment and a studio from scratch, right? So now you have to live to be a hundred million years old, which I mean you’re a robust guy. I don’t think you’re going to make it past a million, but you could flip.
(01:12:11):
But now make a chat bot that knows about the following. Say I said, you know what I want you to do is I want you to use a chat a GPT-4 engine to analyze a whole bunch of sales conversations and score them based on five skills and it invents the skills and then take those rep skill combinations and use that and combine that with pipeline built and come up with a scheme that actually says, Hey, your team needs to work on this skill because it’s going to drive more pipeline for you or in your industry. You could do that probably all by yourself if you just didn’t do anything else. Maybe in three to six months there’s a lot of moving parts and you got to have access to the data and all that, but it’s not a billion years, it’s just you could actually do it.
(01:13:03):
That’s what changes based on this GPT stuff. On these LLMs. What changes is the ability for person A who has an insight to turn that insight into functionality mediated by computers that person B can use. Immediately upon that insight being realized, software development is gone in its old form, and I speak as a person who has written lots and lots of code, more than a million lines of code, and what do I tell you? That’s where the change is. So the reason it’s unpredictable is we can predict Microsoft’s going to do really well. Microsoft in my opinion, will be underpriced for a long, long time because folks’ imaginations don’t understand what happens when you dissolve an entire industry and pipe the results over to another company that’s in a position to take advantage of that sales. Sales will be barely impacted at all compared to software development barely impacted at all. So I don’t worry about that stuff. Those in sales worry about it.
Corey Frank (01:14:12):
Yeah. Yeah. Shane, you had mentioned Sybil earlier. So Sybil is one of our great clients and we’ve had the CRO Ben Sternsmith on this podcast for a couple of episodes and the Branch49 scribe that’s in the background of this very podcast recording all of our emotions and our body language and our eye contact that is, so I will send you the Sybil of this call afterwards and you can see for yourself exactly how progressive it is.
Chris Beall (01:15:21):
By the way, take notes by hand, using your body. There’s actually good research that shows that it changes how you learn. Now, that’s one of those words, it’s like how you learn, actually, you’re reshaping your nervous system. You’re actually shaping it into something new. You become a new person when you learn. And so by taking notes by hand, you become a new person that you want to be, which is kind of what Branch49 is all about, right? It’s about becoming the new person that you want to be. And it’s kind of what the other side of sales is about, which is becoming somebody who has access to stuff you didn’t have access to. So your organization is new in a way. It wasn’t Corey’s use in civil, his organization is different as a result because it is learned civilly, so to speak, by grafting Sibyl onto its operations. Somebody had to sell ’em that.
Corey Frank (01:16:17):
We also call it screenplay versus script as well that we’ve used for years and years. So the screenplay is a little bit more specific and complete than a script. A lot of folks just colloquially say script, but our screenplay. So you incorporate the verbal disfluencies, a screenplay is brought more to life with the scenery, what your thought is, what the Scorsese director’s notes are, what your tone is, how this product you think is going to be perceived. So that’s all in not just what the rep says, but how the rep should feel about it. We’ve had many episodes about a key component that the reps need to have is belief when they’re presenting. James Thornberg talks about this with his neutrality focus. Certainly a lot of Chris reps that we’ve had on the podcast have done that as well. So that’s the piece where I think we’ll finish up here is on, again, I keep coming back to that authenticity, but what I’ve learned certainly from you two fine gentlemen, is that if you lead with the fact that, hey, listen, I’m going to approach you Mr. Prospect, but I’m not human, so accept me faults and all nuances at all hangups and all, but I am who I say I am. And so as we say in the 27 seconds, my ability is to establish that trust by acknowledging the fact that I am who I say I am.
(01:17:50):
And I think that’s key and that’s how you leverage, you augment a one plus one equals 11, it sounds like with AI versus trying to rip and replace, for instance, which a lot of folks are talking about.
Shane Mahi (01:18:05):
I second that.
Corey Frank (01:18:06):
Beautiful. Well, with that, thank you again, Shane. Let’s make sure that it’s not another four years before you drop into the episode of Market Dominance. Guys, we certainly want to keep an eye on what’s happening with your new venture. We look forward to seeing you on LinkedIn as always. Chris, any final thoughts on AI and sales?
Chris Beall (01:18:30):
One final thought, thought rhymes with bot and the sounds of words really count; human beings process poetry too. Corey, we’re back to your Elizabethan poetry. Yes, yes.
Corey Frank (01:18:41):
Comes back to
Chris Beall (01:18:42):
Shakespeare. And this is why talking bots actually are going to be quite interesting in the world of sales because words still start as sounds and thought still rhymes with bot.
Corey Frank (01:18:53):
Yeah, for sure. Well, beautiful four, Chris, this is Corey Frank from the Market Dominance Guys until next time.
