EP214: The Future of Sales: Balancing AI and Authenticity
The guys are back with sales visionary Shane Mahi as we dive into the vital facets of authenticity, ethics, and trust in the world of sales. As sales leaders, you know these elements are crucial for fostering customer loyalty and closing those pivotal deals. Shane elaborates on how transparency and being genuine have led to exponential sales growth for him over the past months. They also investigate AI’s emerging impact and why interpersonal skills remain vital, even with advancing technology. This forward-looking discussion offers invaluable wisdom on steering sales teams through a shifting landscape. Whether you aim to amplify results or spearhead AI adoption, you will gain insight from Shane’s real-world perspectives. Join us as we continue unraveling the keys to ethical and successful selling in this next-level episode, “The Future of Sales: Balancing AI and Authenticity.”
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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
Chris Beall (00:32:56):
So the ethics piece I think actually is simplified down to the bot’s, got to tell the truth that it’s a bot. It turns out that’s also the practical path. Bots that lie are like salespeople that lie. By the way, there is no shortage of the ladder. I mean, we act like, oh my God, the bot’s going to be lying about being a bot. The salesperson is going to be lying about being on your side. In B2B sales, I have exactly two jobs. One, I have to be an expert. Two, I have to be on your side. If one, I’m not an expert, but I portray myself as one and two, I pretend to be on your side, but actually over here on the side, I’m kind of dragging my commission in here to make sure that it talks to you before I do. If those two things are happening, which I believe happen in a very high proportion of sales conversations, then I’m exactly what people think. I am a lying salesperson. We have a podcast here that has 210 episodes that say you can dominate markets with the human voice at pace and scale under one and only one condition, which is that you tell the truth. That’s actually the condition. And it’s very interesting. I mean, we’re conceptually hoping to liberate salespeople to tell the truth, but you got to liberate the bot to tell the truth. You built the damn bot. Have it tell the truth.
Shane Mahi (00:34:16):
Well, I think that’s the only thing that made us successful. We picked the most lovely industry to go into, and that’s telemarketing and cold prospecting. And what was it? And the only reason that I was able to get to the truth faster was because read about Daniel Disney when the pandemic hit found, cog found ConnectAndSell, bought Cog, bought ConnectAndSell, spoke with Gerry, did Flight Scool, had seven meetings in six hours, and that’s where it started. It was the ability to have your script, be honest, open, and just get into those conversations. And by doing that fast, quickly, efficiently, and at scale, we were able to progress our business much faster, I think, than a lot of people. We actually had 444% growth from year one to year two from using ConnectAndSell and implementing a system called the Entrepreneurial Operating System™ by Gino Wickman.
(00:35:15):
Now the authenticity of our brand, and even what is happening right now, it came from all of the mistakes we made. And those are typically our storytelling, selling mechanisms, the mistakes we made and the path we took got us to a place where made all those mistakes, learned everything, service customers. I obviously lost my business because of some bad decisions I had to let go of my business, A lot of bad decisions. But I’ve recreated my business. That took me three years in three months with the use of ChatGPT. And why is because I prompted all of my problems, all of my stakes helped me build a business plan that bypasses these mistakes and gives me the outcomes I’m looking for in half the time. And in that now, my marketing, my messaging, emails, prospecting, research, everything that, again, like you said, rightfully so, anything in the future is anxiety.
(00:36:12):
Anything in the past is regret. The only thing that matters is right, right now. And what’s happening right, right now is yes, you better get on board because AI is happening. As much as you are worried about what can happen 5, 10, 15 years in the future, that shit is going to happen whether you like it or not. So it’s either get ahead of the curve or get with the curve, or you are going to be that. They’re just bums, bums who want to stay behind and complain and say, this is going to ruin me. This is going to take my job. Get with the program, dude, get with the program. Start using it. I was a novice, an absolute novice using ChatGPT when it first came out. The only thing that drew my attention was a hundred million users in one week for that alone. I was like, all right, let me see what this is about. I’m a novice still to this day, but the amount of times I’ve set up till three in the morning, six, seven hours, prompting, prompting, prompting to the point, the only reason I went to bed is because it said, you’ve maxed out your attempts. You can’t use us anymore.
Corey Frank (00:37:13):
You finished the internet, you exhausted ChatGPT.
Shane Mahi (00:37:18):
That’s right, and that happened multiple times. And my knowledge comes, which is why I believe podcasts, even to the education of AI and ethics and sales and marketing, everything behind it has come from listening and watching podcasts. That’s the only reason I was able to learn. Well,
Corey Frank (00:37:34):
Sure, sure. And Shane, you’re a prolific podcast guest, and again, a purveyor of a lot of thought leadership on LinkedIn. Chris and I we’re on the campus of Grand Canyon University here. Shane, and Chris are responsible for what we built and why we’ve built Branch 49. He coined the phrase that we use here pretty ubiquitously now that this is a finishing school for future CEOs, part of that finishing school that curricula is that you have to have educational programs that not just teach technological aptitude, which is Hey, how to use chat gp, which you just went GTT, which you went through or Salesforce or ConnectAndSell or Cognizant or anything else. But Chris, I think what we’ve talked about many, many times, Shane, and I think your epitome of this is that you can’t just teach technology. You can’t just teach technology aptitude. You
have to teach interpersonal abilities that have to foster that trust and have to foster those connections.
(00:38:45):
And if you don’t, then you will be threatened by a chat GPT that will very quickly enable you to engender trust faster than probably somebody who’s fence posts the emotional AI that you need. The emotional intelligence that we’ve talked about, right in this profession for a long time, will be key. So I think one of our early episodes, Chris, we talked about, or maybe it was a guest, we talked about how there’s an ability to hear a smile, right? We’ve talked about that from our earliest mentors, right? Studies have shown that our sense of hearing is so incredible. It’s so acute that we can identify emotions and conversations even in a Zoom conversation like this. We can respond to the nuances of a head nod of no, of body language if there’s disassociation with the topic. So how does ai, I mean, I hear it’s coming that this ability for AI to listen to a stammer, to listen to a nuance, to hear a smile, and then maybe respond with a softer question with maybe a couple of verbal disfluencies on a pause versus finishing a response and then hitting with a direct question right out of the gate without any social nuance.
(00:40:14):
So do you guys see any of that or anybody teaching that, any technologies that you’re aware of that are moving in that direction?
Shane Mahi (00:40:23):
All of them. I’ll jump in real quick on that. So I ran a podcast, actually the second one with James Buckley, John Barrow’s, right hand man. And I asked him, who else do you think would be a great guest on the podcast? And he said, you’ve got to check out these two guys. And one of ’em is Sybil, and there’s another one that came with a W. I’ll check out the name. But one of those softwares has the ability now, just like you said, Corey, with going like this, your hand gestures, your movements, the ability to tell if somebody’s being genuine on a call, it detects eye movement. Did his eyes go like this? Here’s your trigger. Here’s your cue for this. Did he make a gesture? Did he lean back when you said this question, did he lean into it? Now, sometimes we’re on calls and we do have hidden agendas in some you shouldn’t, but everybody has some sort of hidden agenda.
(00:41:16):
Well, whatever the case may be, and you don’t have any way of knowing that without having your second or third party or let’s just say software to help you discover that. And I saw this the other day, right? So I’m sitting up on WhatsApp on social media, and I get a message from somebody and they say, oh, I love what you’re doing. I’ve seen you on this and this and this. Do you want to have a chat? I want to talk to you about a few things. And usually I wouldn’t say yes, but I said, all right, fuck it, why not? So I jumped on the call with him and sat on the call with him for three hours. It came to a point where I told him a little bit about my story and I didn’t expect anything from anybody, but I just saw the eyes go and right then the call was dead for me. I’m not working with that guy ever again. I told him, don’t ever call me again the next day. He just like
Corey Frank (00:42:11):
That.
Shane Mahi (00:42:12):
Just like that because I’m not stupid. I’ve been through plenty of experienced prisoners. I’ve been to prison, I’ve been to rehab, I’ve been living in the US New Jersey, I’ve come to the uk, I’ve been to Morocco, all kinds of countries. I sense body language, you can sense and feel people’s energy. And when you see somebody being disingenuous, I’ve had conversations with Chris for three and a half hours while he’s walking around the desert barefoot. So that to me is genuine. But when I’m having a conversation and now we’re talking about brand identity and who you are, and now the brand is you, Shane, and then when you ask for my opinion and you are not intrigued or interested and it’s just a motive, you are hidden agendas. You just want money out of me because you heard I generated X amount of revenue the previous year May, I’m done with you, and I don’t say that to a lot of people. So what do you think about Chris with the ability to recognize authenticity on these calls with any of these AI bots or AI softwares, and how can you trust the AI software to be genuine when it is dictating those outcomes to you?
Chris Beall (00:43:19):
Well, I think there’s two things. One is I think it’s okay to interact with somebody whose motives are clear. In fact, I think one of the uses of humor in conversations is that you can, in a light way, touch on the issue that you’re looking for a deal or whatever it happens to be.
Corey Frank (00:43:40):
Introducing our friend Orin’s introduction of tension. You have to introduce tension to create authenticity
Chris Beall (00:43:46):
And there’s natural tension, but it doesn’t need to be hidden. It doesn’t need to be cryptic, but it does need to be on an acceptable path from where somebody is emotionally to where they might be able to interact with you with a clearer mind. And that’s actually sort of what the entire this whole market dominance thing is about is you’re trying to help somebody go from their current emotional state, which is that they’re afraid of you because you ambush them, but say it’s a discovery call, they’re apprehensive about joining that call. They’re pretty sure you’re going to try to sell me something, and that makes somebody feel a bit put upon it feels dangerous, right? As the future CEO, you need to learn how to take somebody or help somebody make a transition from their current emotional state to one where you can be more useful to them.
(00:44:46):
And I’ll use an analogy, I worked a lot with animals. I grew up around lots and lots of animals, and some of them were very large horses in particular, and you owe that horse after all, the horse is getting a pretty good deal. It’s not out there running around in the desert trying to find a little pond to suck up a little water so it doesn’t desiccate and croak out there in three days. So it’s living in a nice paddock and in a corral, and you’re feeding it and you brush it, even just like people walk after their dogs and pick up dog shit. You’re a slave to the horse and all of that, but you owe that horse enough moment by moment awareness of its emotions that it can do its job so that you can afford to keep it. Its job includes having a bit in its mouth.
(00:45:38):
That ain’t that fun actually, if you think about it, right? Who would want that? Why don’t you put a piece of steel in my mouth, attach it to some ropes, so to speak, and then pull on ’em to tell me which way to go. Oh, great deal. Love it. I’m signing up for that right away. That horse wants to sign up for that, but it does kind of like that bale of hay and then horse pellets and a little oats every once in a while and a place to get out of the rain and maybe some horsey friends that it can hang out with and stuff like that. So it’s a trade-off, but you owe that animal the emotional journey to help on the emotional journey to where it’ll accept the bit. That’s what we do as helpful experts in sales. We need to help somebody go on that emotional journey.
(00:46:27):
So bots, if bots are going to be successful, cheap as they are, they also need to be able to help somebody on that emotional journey. Fortunately, that journey has been mapped out for different parts of the sales process in ways that certain kinds of scripting and voice can help somebody. If you refer to it as manipulation, you’re actually inferring that the purpose is your purpose against their purpose. If you believe you can be helpful, then you’re kind of obliged to do this. I was once a witness to a head-on collision where two guys not wearing seat belts went through the windshield of their vehicle, and I was driving a big truck that was full of cement mix. And so I’m looking down at this accident, very dramatic, right? I owed those people who are now lying there, bleeding from all the glass cuts and all lying on the hood.
(00:47:30):
I owed them if I could do it. And I was trained in this stuff, and some help on the emotional journey from laying there, bleeding and being all hyped up and thinking you should run around, took calming down, calming over, lying down, being treated for shock. While I had some people do some things like call ambulances and stuff like that because I was more expert than the other people around who watched that accident and these people were in need, I owed them if I could do it, the opportunity to go on an emotional journey that let them be treated medically. Because if they were going to run around chickens with their heads cut off and scream at people and jump up and down, it wasn’t going to happen. Life is full of this stuff. If you want to be a leader, you are obliged to take on an understanding and skills around helping somebody get to the point where you can help them, and that’s really the essence of sales. That’s what we do. That’s why what they’re doing at Branch 49 is so interesting because you go into the conversation pit, so to speak, and you learn how to have conversations that, yeah, it has a set of meeting outcome and everybody applaud and all that, but what you’re really learning to do is to help somebody get in a state where you can help them. That’s actually what it’s all about.
Shane Mahi (00:48:50):
I agree. And just to add a bit of context to that situation, the point of the conversation was supposed to be, let me show you a few of the things that I’m working on on the mega brand. So somebody who was supposed to be part of that, and hey, cool man, let’s have a look. Here’s a couple of the images. And without being genuine and saying, Hey, I want to show you this because I believe I can expand, or I can grow your brand with the same mechanisms to do this, then I’m game. I’m fine. Again, if we were on this podcast and after the podcast, it came to, Hey, Shane, can you buy this from me? It’d be the same thing if somebody came on my podcast and I was interviewing them because I want to share their journey with my network and have other people become educated on the path to entrepreneurship.
(00:49:41):
And then all of a sudden at the end of it, I said, oh, well, I want you to pay for this too, and I want you to give me this and give me this. And they would be like, Shane is a scumbag. So for me, again, that authenticity piece and the ethics behind just trustworthiness and being honest and transparent and frank, I’ve closed more sales in the past seven months from not trying to sell anything than I did in the past three years of my entire business career. And again, it was because I learned, I’ve had conversations very, very, I’m not bragging on nothing, but I’ve had very high level conversations with important leaders. Chris, like yourself on Chris, I want to fire the team. What should I do? Remember that
Chris Beall (00:50:22):
We had that conversation. That one took about two and a half hours actually, and was right over there on my patio that I was on the desert.
Shane Mahi (00:50:30):
We had that chat and many more. And then my conversations changed from, Hey, do you want to learn about how we can book you more meetings to, Hey, do you want me to tell you how I can increase your valuation and help you get to an exit in three years versus the next 10, right? Those types of conversations changed everything about what I’m doing, and it’s because I’m ethical in everything I do and how I approach my market. So that’s me on that piece. Just to chime in on that,
Chris Beall (00:51:00):
Corey, I think there’s a problem that you’re going to face, and the problem is we do need people to learn how to interact with other people starting from where they are. So when you’re young, your interactions when you’re really young have a lot to do with your parents and a lot to do with power. Anybody who’s ever had a 2-year-old knows it has everything to do with power because you’re trying to get a little power in the world, and there’s ways to do it. Screaming your head off in a public place works pretty well. There’s a bunch of others. The word no comes to mind, right? The original tough customer is a 2-year-old. They’ve got a response to your suggestion, no, you’re trying to sell ’em whatever. Why don’t you sit in the high chair here at the restaurants that run around the table and kick our feet?
(00:51:46):
No, right? I mean, that’s where the resistance to sales actually starts. We need people to learn how to do this, not in order to sell things to other people, but in order to have their own learning, which in certain ways will always exceed any bots. And here’s why. By the way, in the world of the innovation economy, all the value is created by bringing things together that weren’t together before, and discovering that you can get new value from simple combinations. If you’ve ever worked with a patent attorney, you’ll be told by a good one. Look, you don’t come up with something new. You combine two things that exist, and now you have something patentable. That’s the world of patents. And as you know, I have a certain book of them and my patent attorney, Sid Leach, up in Phoenix, the best that I’ve ever worked with, I’ve been working with them since my 40th birthday, so that means 29 plus years.
(00:52:46):
And that was the first thing he taught me was, you’re not coming up with something new, even though it’s novel, it’s always a combination. It’s always a combination. Well, everything can be combined. That’s why the innovation economy is so huge, because there’s so many combinations. So you asked, what is this AI stuff in sales? Oh, look, a combination AI and sales, two things brought together, but in order to get the combinations to happen, it takes conversations both with other people and inside of our own little noggins as we cro around in the desert barefoot or do whatever crazy things we do, and if we want to share those with somebody else and have them make a dangerous decision, do I want to try something new? Which is the essence of innovation, economy, sales, do I want to try something new? We need to get really, really good at helping somebody get to the point where we can have that conversation.
(00:53:39):
So if we deprive folks of the ability to do the baby conversation, which is the cold call, how are we going to get into the adult conversation? Which is, what do you think? If we were to take that technology, that technology and that company right there and put, I don’t know, maybe a hundred million bucks into it, what do you think? Can we do something there? That’s a much less comfortable conversation because there’s more on the line, but there’s always more on the line. So you’re going to face a problem, Corey, which is, and it is not going to happen fast, but when cold calling is better done by bots or done as well, but much more cheaply, which is a likely thing to happen at some point, at least for the first call, where does the practice come from for people to become competent business leaders? And it’s going to take some thinking and work.
Shane Mahi (00:54:34):
I have a quick question on this, Corey, and I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts. So let’s just call the typical outbound service in today’s society, roughly. It costs about 10,000 pounds for us to deliver a monthly service, 10,000 pounds, a monthly retainer, let’s call it that. Now you’ve got one or two dedicated reps, you’ve got a research team on there. You’ve got quite a heavy opex cost, let’s say 50 to 60% of the entire deal value or the monthly deal value goes towards that. When the time comes that a bot has the ability to do that process that those researchers can do, and those first callers can do the, does the outbound, does the outbound arena, the environment still keep their costs the same, the value is still the same, you’re still getting the outcome, or does it now become a period of, or a playground where we’re going to fight on costs?
Chris Beall (00:55:35):
I know the answer to that question because I didn’t study Elizabeth and poetry. I was reading Peter Drucker when I was seven years old. Oh, okay. Lemme throw you the answer. Prices always follow costs downward, always. And the reason is that there asymmetries and situations among providers, and for one provider, even holding quality constant, which is pretty impossible to know if you’ve done, it always is the case where they could either make more money now on the transaction or in the future off the market by offering the same service at a lower price. Therefore, they will do that, and therefore they will take share from you.
(00:56:20):
That’s just the answer. And a question of, in any competitive environment, how does that work out? I mean, again, this is a big deal on this podcast. We often talk about the fact that the world of sales obsesses about competition and also acts like there isn’t any competition at the same time, which is truly bizarre when you think about it. So if you want to get a salesperson hyped up, talk about a competitor, oh, there was a competitor in that deal. Oh my God, what are they offering? Where’s our battle cards? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it’s like, well, what are we offering? Oh, absolutely. We’re offering this value and absolutely we’re doing this. No, it’s all relative, you’re offering something that has an unknown and a kind of known quality at one thing that is known, which is the cost, at least the dollar cost, and comes with other costs like, oh, you got to actually implement it.
(00:57:15):
You got to hire people, you gotta train ’em, you got to do whatever. So what happens over time is competition shapes, markets and new material science shapes costs. New material science always shapes cost. As soon as you make rolled steel, you change the cost of automobiles. As soon as you can make a combination of rebar and concrete that you can take up far enough to put some really inexpensive glass on it, you make skyscrapers instead of three story buildings in old downtowns and you reshape the world. Material costs and per unit capability shape the economy’s direction because of competition at all times relentlessly and pretending it’s not going to happen is frankly idiotic.
