EP211: Conversations Convert to Pipeline Power
As sales leaders, we’re ultimately responsible for revenue growth. In part two of this must-listen episode, Helen Fanucci and Chris Beall reveal how to build an asset that drives results: pipeline power. Learn why phone and conversation intelligence beats guesswork. Discover how to arm your team with the right data to fill your pipeline with serious opportunities. We dive into the critical questions you must ask on every account to accelerate sales cycles. Helen emphasizes that trust builds between companies early on, so executives must engage alongside reps. Tune into part two for tangible tips on avoiding over-strategizing in favor of authentic conversations. You’ll pick up tactics to leverage intent signals, stop playing pipeline games, and create alignment around valuable targets. The key takeaway: with closed-loop feedback, your pipeline can become a core competitive advantage that speeds up cycles and boosts revenue.
Links from this episode:
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:
Corey Frank (00:01):
Chris, you’ve said many times marketing has budget, but no headcount. Sales has headcount, but oftentimes no budget. I would imagine certainly one of the things with pipeline power, Helen, in this consultancy and this advisory that you have on helping clients get more refined targeting to think about their targeting differently is about giving more power to the sales folks. And perhaps if you’re talking to the marketing folks, giving more power to the marketing folks, how to allocate their budgets and allocate the resource probably a little bit more efficiently.
Helen Fanucci (00:38):
Yeah, I think so. But it also may be, it depends on the size of the organization, but I think there is a strategic, there needs to be a decider, if you will. Okay, this is the strategic decision, the direction we’re going in because the targeting is a representation or a manifestation of the strategy of the business strategy. So that could be the head of sales, it could be marketing, it depends organizationally where that lands, or it might be the CEO if it’s a smaller company, but it does absolutely point to a business strategy. Now, if you get more efficient with targeting and are able to do more with less, that could be threatening to some sales leaders who want to have a bigger organization headcount wise, or that might mean higher quotas. So it just depends on the dynamics and I think it’s really going to take some iteration and conversations with some, if you will, friendly customers, friendly folks that I have relationships with to actually kind of see what that dynamic is and what the sweet spot is in terms of the offering as well as really the business challenge that these companies are looking to solve.
Helen Fanucci (01:59):
Because it may not be targeting, per se, I say targeting, but it actually may be market expansion. They want to test more markets. I mean, there’s a lot of ways to apply that methodology and thought process. It could be, as I said, grow revenue fast here, get feedback, do more, or it could be okay, we want to expand and we want to try out some new markets. So it’ll be interesting as I get more time and focus engaging with my potential market to see really what’s resonating and what the core, I have an idea of the core challenges, but I think in some organizations it will be different titles that care and it will resonate with some folks and other folks it might not resonate with.
Corey Frank (02:54):
Well, I see Helen on this. There’s a market maker to open up your aperture when you look at your total addressable market is right. How everybody’s taught is total addressable market, and then you have your service addressable market, and then maybe even under that, you have your serviceable, attainable market, right? So if TAM is your total potential market demand and then you have your sam, which is the portion that a business can realistically target, and then the OMM service attainable market is the portion that your business can realistically capture. If you’re helping me expand again or open up that aperture a little bit tot to grab folks that maybe I didn’t have access before, it seems like that aperture opening is good for small mid-size companies, especially because I don’t have, at Microsoft you probably had X amount of account managers walking through the halls. You had X amount of client amazement managers, so you could fill in the gaps where maybe I couldn’t see if I’m a small mid-size company to know, oh, no, no, no. Hey, Helen does the same thing that Chris, but Chris has a different title than Helen and she’s on LinkedIn and Chris doesn’t believe in that and he’s not on that. Would you see that Chris, from market dominance perspective is that that whole aperture gets a little bigger?
Chris Beall (04:17):
Yeah, I think it gets bigger and then you get to wrestle with the big factor in business, which is time. One of the huge differences among businesses is just how long can they go without eating? So just like among animals, right? Really big animals like me, I won’t say anything about you who have had plenty to eat and are genetically engineered by nature to be of a certain size. We can go without eating for quite a little while.
Corey Frank (04:47):
At least an hour. At least an hour, yeah,
Chris Beall (04:50):
At least in my case, I’ve made it 37 minutes once and it was quite good. So a very small animal, it might have to eat once every hour or something like that. And I think a lot of what constitutes advice in sales and marketing go to market is advice that if you’re the wrong size company and you take it, you die, you actually die of starvation. It becomes a pretty serious business actually. So one of the factors you have to take into account is kind of like how much do you have to kill and eat in the amount of time you have before you get skinny and die? And when you’re opening that aperture, now that translates into how fast can you explore that new chunk of market you’re thinking about before it takes too long, right? So now the cycle time of exploration is super, super important.
Chris Beall (05:42):
And if you believe that conversations of the means for exploration and frankly I don’t know of any other that delivers enough highly reliable high fidelity information, then the cycle time to next conversation within somebody hypothetically is worth speaking to in that wider aperture becomes the dominant feature in the execution of your strategy, and that actually becomes the dominant feature. The feedback becomes the dominant feature in your actual strategy because having a strategy you can’t execute is kind of ridiculous. And yet we all start out with strategies we can’t execute. We must because we don’t know enough to choose a strategy, we can’t execute. So our strategy is a hypothesis. We need to go out and engage. It always reminds me of when I first met Helen, we went sailing together and there was a little piece of equipment that was on the mast and she knows sailing and I don’t, she races sailboats and I serve as ballast, kind of animate ballast, right?
Chris Beall (06:42):
There’s killer whales and you can’t get them to come up on the boat and do the job, so you use me instead. So I noted that when she saw this piece of equipment that was very small and looked out of place that she ran, actually went physically fast toward the mass, then stopped and examined. That’s what you need to do in markets. You need to go fast into a point where you’re engaging, which is the conversation. She was having a conversation with this loose piece of equipment with her eyes and her MIT trained brain, her engineer’s brain, and then she came up with a strategy. The strategy from where she was sitting in the back of the boat and the stern would’ve been a poor strategy because she didn’t have enough information. She needed the information from engaging the market, this little piece of metal that was hanging there looking funny in order to be able to go, oh, this is what I’ll do.
Chris Beall (07:36):
I can safely tuck it away and ignore it, or I can take some time and fix it or whatever. I think that’s a great analogy for this kind of work that Helen is embarking on with pipeline power is look, you got to have somebody go run into the market and engage it and talk with it, not for the purpose of making a sale this quarter, but for the purpose of efficiently gathering information that will inform your strategies. You even know which of those three strategic layers with regard to Tam you’re in. Because let me tell you, if you think you know, you’re fooling yourself, you’re fooling yourself. If you aren’t getting feedback from the market through conversations at a short enough cycle time and a high enough frequency, you’re just guessing and your problem is competitively, somebody else might choose not to guess. And I think Helen’s going to help her clients choose not to guess.
Corey Frank (08:33):
And so with that, the helping knuckleheads like me choose not to guess. Where do you start, Helen, right? I’m a small mid-size VP of sales. I have a decent patient board. I have a SaaS software product. I got some funding. I think I’m doing everything right. I have enough people, I got for more people as soon as I start proving myself and go to the board. So I think I’m doing okay, but where would I start with something like this? With people power?
Helen Fanucci (09:05):
I would start by looking at the data that you currently have in your CRM system or whatever your system of record is to find out one, where you’re winning, who you’re winning with, what types of people are making the buying decisions as a business. You may or may not already know. That depends how you have been crawling through your own data. So I’d start there to look at the current state and try to draw some conclusions or at least illuminate where resources are aligned and are they aligned to where you’re currently winning or are they misaligned? So I would start looking at the current state to build a hypothesis of what you could do more of to accelerate your revenue, and it might be repositioning some resources to an industry that you’re doing well at or trying to then going to find people. Let’s say you have some folks that make the decision, so you have some champions or economic buyers, what do they have in common across each other?
Helen Fanucci (10:24):
And I don’t just mean job titles, but the characteristics. You can look on LinkedIn and see what the characteristics of those and then go find some more like that within a defined addressable market or where you think you want to go. I think some of those things are places to start. This begins to get the closed loop feedback here. You have data, you have some results and dispositions from your go-to market, even if it’s closed loss or not now, not interested, what have you. So trying to apply current data to then make some recommendations of how to move forward. The other thing too is what information do you have or that you capture that’s proprietary to you? Because can’t build a defendable market dominance position on publicly available information. So what is it that you’re collecting or that’s proprietary and how do you get more of that that’s relevant to your business? And I don’t know if that’s something in my experience anyway, that’s not really a deliberate thing that people put. Time sort of happens and some people have more insights into their customer set, but doing that in an organized fashion to build up insights that your competitors don’t have, or at least that’s proprietary to you, makes a lot of sense and differentiating yourself and defending your position in the market.
Corey Frank (12:06):
Well, it also sounds like right Chris, defending, Hey, I got 4 0 9 a’s that I have to do every year. If I can make an argument that I have some proprietary IP with regards to my cybersecurity database versus everybody else’s, that could be an advantage from an acquisition or funding or valuation perspective. Could it not, Chris?
Chris Beall (12:31):
Oh yeah. I mean when you come right down to it, growth is the big driver of valuations and proprietary information is the big driver of growth. We actually, I think everybody knows that. It’s like I want my really good reps out talking to people and learning what their needs are, proprietary information. That person told me what their needs are. I want to know when they’re thinking of doing something. I want to know what other systems and processes we need to fit together with. I need to know who are the other people who are important in making a decision. I need to know if they’re in a macro situation that tells me and tells them, Hey, we got to sit tight for a while, say in the middle of an m and a circumstance, but we think it’ll be kind of done and integrated within three months, four months, five months, whatever.
Chris Beall (13:21):
All of that proprietary information that that’s what is fundamental to being competitive. Your product features, your product capabilities are almost never going to be able to stand up to the market over time. Because if they’re good people will copy them and they’ll copy them. In fact, the innovator’s dilemma tells us they will copy them with something that is cheaper than what you sell and not quite as good, but occupies a pretty big chunk of your addressable market. You’re now obliged to defend from above, right? This is those who haven’t read their professor, Clayton Christensen should grab their innovator’s dilemma and reread it, and I would recommend rereading it twice actually, because most of us don’t get it. When I read it the first time. It’s interesting to me again, I told you, I just read a book over the holidays here about the second law of thermodynamics, which is about the second law is the one that says you can’t break even.
Chris Beall (14:18):
You always lose. So the three laws are like, you can’t win, you always lose and you can’t get out of the game, right? Well, the one that says you always lose says things just get more disordered. Your job as a business is to create order by using energy up in the environment to do something. Well, what does that order? That order that lower entropy is in the form of information that allows you to go to the market more efficiently, talk to this person rather than this person. Have another conversation with this person in four weeks. Stay away from this person or this company because they don’t have any need forever. Come back to these in a year because they will have need develop your product so it integrates with this product because that would give you access to this entire set of the market. All these things are driven by information that comes to you that creates order so that you don’t dissolve into chaos, into entropy.
Chris Beall (15:14):
Like everything else in the universe, you’re trying to fight against the tendency of the universe, which is to go crazy, to go disorder. The glass when it falls and breaks doesn’t ever reassemble itself. Well, it’s your job as a business to reassemble broken glasses or keep them from breaking. There’s a lot of things that we can do. So what Helen is suggesting is one of the things we can do is let’s pay attention to where we have a chance, but let’s also find out if we have a chance that is let’s make some good first decisions, hypothetical decisions as to where to go learn more, then let’s go learn more, then let’s make better decisions based on that information of where we should go learn more. Sales is actually a learning process primarily, and the exhaust of sales is deals and revenue.
Corey Frank (16:02):
That’s great. Chris, you heard that one yet, Helen, from him. Sales process is predominantly a learning exercise and the exhaust and residue is revenue.
Helen Fanucci (16:14):
I think that that’s not a compelling value proposition for a business, particularly when talking to sales leaders. They’re accountable for revenue and yeah, okay, the learning thing, alright, maybe it’s a more CEO executive conversation, but for most sales leaders, I don’t think that’s a winning proposition. That’s just my opinion. I don’t disagree with Chris, but I think there’s probably a more elegant way to frame it that would resonate more with the audience.
Chris Beall (16:50):
I love that. Well, that’s why I think most sales leaders last such a short amount of time in their jobs because they are held accountable for the quarter and maybe the next quarter, but the company is trying to do something over a longer period of time and you get this sort of mismatch. And so it’s one of the big issues that we have now is it used to be salespeople. Were formally, informally responsible for nurturing their territory. We give you a territory. We don’t expect you to leave the territory next quarter. We’re actually thinking the longer you’re in the territory, the more you’re going to control the territory and the revenue you generate from the territory will become more predictable over time. That’s kind of why we do it. You get Cory, you get Phoenix. Well, we don’t know how big Phoenix is for us revenue wise, but we’re pretty sure that if your butts on the line, your family’s fortune’s on the line and you’re good, you’re going to figure that out.
Chris Beall (17:44):
In a world where geography no longer dominates, territories become challenging. And now we’ve got to ask ourselves, well, so what are we really doing? And what we’re really doing is we’re saying sales, you’ve got a new problem. You’ve got to also nurture relationships over time. The old problem that you had when you had a territory, but now you have to do it with a lot less territorial clarity. And I think almost all conversations with sales leaders now are relatively uncomfortable for a whole bunch of reasons, including the macro economy, which doesn’t help at all. They’re held accountable for what happens when interest rates go up too. Interestingly enough, I actually agree with Helen. It’s not a compelling value prop, but it’s a fact of the world. And the fact is those who sell really, really well turn out to be those who learned the fastest and turn those learnings into compelling value for those that are ready to buy now and nurturing relationships with those who will be ready to buy later.
Corey Frank (18:49):
Well, and with what both of you have been saying, if it is indeed a learning exercise, and it may not be attractive to say that, hey, the residue is revenue, it also would yield the premise that the faster I can learn, the faster I can get to revenue, the more cycles I can put into that learning exercise. IE through nurturing, through cold calling, through understanding who my targets are out of the gate. It’s measured three times, cut once and versus how a lot of organizations are. I give you all these tools. I’m going to bring in all the reps for outreach and SalesLoft and LinkedIn navigator. You’re going to learn as a sales professional how to do it. But maybe my nature isn’t to be a farmer. My nature isn’t to be a nurturer. My nature maybe isn’t to be a closer, my nature isn’t to be a presenter, but I have an armed with all these tools.
Corey Frank (19:41):
I’m saddled with a number, a million and a half. I’ll see you in 12 months. And that’s usually where it ends. And the sales leaders are there to help support them, meaning let me know if you have a deal that has a couple of commas in it, because I’m going to come in and I’m going to help close that deal for you. But the tactical efforts are maybe probably geared around how your hygiene in Salesforce is. Maybe that’s the majority of the tactical communication with the reps or in their all hands meetings. Correct. So it’s interesting dilemma, but I’m looking forward to hearing more about pipeline power. And by the way, if you go to pipeline power.com, that’s about offshore drilling rigs and things like that. Love it. That’s not what we’re talking about.
Helen Fanucci (20:22):
This is pipeline power ai. Thank you very much. ai. Although I don’t think our website’s up yet, so still working on that, but yeah, no, I saw that as well. I thought, oh, that’s perfect. That means it’s a completely different industry. No conflicts. I know this is pipeline power ai. By the way, Corey, your last statements there, the faster cycle time. This is why people who actually use the phone are going to win because they learn faster and leaders must work with their reps or understand how their reps are doing. You can’t wait until there’s a deal with multiple commas to go in and close it because it’s already lost unless you’re working with them earlier on because it is a team sport, and you’ve got to get executives engaged early on to have that trust building relationship. The company that’s buying your product has to buy the trust of the company, not just the trust of the rep.
Helen Fanucci (21:24):
So there’s a lot of leading indicators on territory planning, account planning, and I don’t mean plan and put on the shelf, I mean plan as an inaction. Next steps, what are you doing? What’s going on? What problems are we solving? What’s the compelling event, et cetera. All the questions that you would know matter along the way. But yeah, so pipeline power is really about targeting and improving and using closed loop data. So as you learn, that goes into the model to improve better and better targeting so that the company can grow and accelerate revenues and valuation and exits or whatever the end game is for the customer’s companies.
Corey Frank (22:13):
What I hear you saying is right, a page out of the book is love your team by arming your team. I think there’s a recent LinkedIn post about that very thing, and so arm them the right
Helen Fanucci (22:24):
Way. Yes, we got arm your team along the way. Absolutely.
Corey Frank (22:27):
Well, wonderful. Well, Helen, thanks for coming, kicking and screaming to this episode of the Market Dominance guys, and glad you banished Chris to the corner of the house there where we normally get to opine and these weekly sessions. So Chris, final thoughts on love your team and on pipeline power and how it pertains to the market dominance mantra.
Chris Beall (22:49):
Well, market dominance is always about starting with a list because markets are lists, they’re not ideas and getting that list to be sufficiently relevant that you can make hay while the sun shines, you can actually make some revenue off it. And then learning from those interactions quickly and make the list better and better. Sharper and sharper, more and more precise. That’s the nature of the game. I love the name that Helen’s chosen pipeline power. Your pipeline is power. Jeb Blunt says the pipe is life. And that’s pretty true. I mean, the pipeline is the power of your company. When you look at your balance sheet and you ask what is the number one contributor to the biggest chunk of your balance sheet, which is called Goodwill, it’s your pipeline.
Corey Frank (23:36):
That’s so great and obviously valuations that we’ve talked about. So Helen, thank you once again for joining us. We hope to hear more and more as pipeline power learns more about this exhaust and residue that we’ve talked so much about in the industry. I think that no one is talking about this element of the tip of the spear as much, and I think the cycle times they’re reduced, those are real compelling arguments to certainly engage with Helen and her team. So for the market dominance guys and Chris Beal, this is Corey Frank. Until next time.
