In this week’s episode of Market Dominance Guys, you’ll get to listen in on part 2 of the conversation between our own Market Dominance Guy, Chris Beall, and our guest, Mark Roberts, CEO, and founder of OTB Solutions. These two experts hold the same unfaltering belief about the importance of the first conversation a sales rep has with a prospect: they’ve learned that the cold caller has to believe in the potential value of the discovery meeting they are offering in order to be successful at setting that meeting.

Mark works as a consultant with CEOs of manufacturing companies, many of whom have voiced the lament, “Why can’t my sales department run like my plant?” Mark thinks that sales really can be a science. “There are dollars in your data if you know where to look,” he says. So, how do you get a CEO to say, “Oh! Belief really does count!”? Show them the numbers. Chris and Mark know that every time a CEO listens in on his reps’ sales calls during one of ConnectAndSell’s intensive test drives, they can easily discern the difference between reps who believe in the value of the meeting and reps who don’t — just by looking at the conversation-to-meeting ratio. They can see what “good” looks like and how much fun reps have when they are successful. Marks explains it like this: “Belief, worthy intent, and fun change the quality of the rep’s output. These things that sound ‘squishy’ are the bedrock of success.” And bringing market dominance to worthy manufacturers is the bedrock of this episode of Market Dominance Guys, “Why Can’t Sales Run Like My Plant?”

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About Our Guest

Mark Allen Roberts, CEO and founder of OTB Solutions, works with company leaders to improve sales and profits by leveraging a data-driven, no smoke and mirrors approach to driving profitable sales growth through assessing sales teams’ skills, motivations, and beliefs and then providing strategic development to improve their performance.

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Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by

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Here is the full transcript from this episode:

Chris Beall (02:22):

It’s so interesting. And that worthy intent part is such a big deal. We went through something a few years ago with a manufacturing company in this case also, where they asked us to do some calling for them, which is something we did for a while. And then we backed off of that and let our partners like young blood works, Corey Frank runs that company, my podcast cohost and others who want to use ConnectAndSell in a setting appointments to do it. But we were doing it ourselves a little bit at the time and we were getting terrible results for a week. And a week of ConnectAndSells it, is a lot.

Mark Roberts (02:55):

That’s a lot of conversation.

Chris Beall (02:56):

Four people we… It’s a lot. It was roughly speaking, 600 conversations.

Mark Roberts (03:02):

Wow.

Chris Beall (03:02):

And with four people that were working in that week, about 150 each and they were getting horrible results. And yet we knew that the scripting was good. The breakthrough script that we use, we know that it’s effective if used correctly. They sounded good, but there was something a little off and over the weekend, I was out for a long run. And I suddenly thought, I know what the problem is. They don’t believe.

Mark Roberts (03:25):

Yup.

Chris Beall (03:26):

These people don’t believe in the potential value of the meeting as a learning experience for the person they’re talking with, regardless of whether business ever gets done any further. And so, went back to the customer to the company and said, “hey, could you dig up one or two folks who would have a very clean recollection of their first discovery meeting with your company?” And they could tell our reps, our top of funnel reps, what the customer learned from that meeting that changed their life.

Mark Roberts (04:00):

Right. That’s [crosstalk 00:04:02].

Chris Beall (04:01):

And they found somebody and we had that person. The science was really something because we’d gone through this baselining without intending to.

Chris Beall (04:11):

And then we did this. We suspended all calling on Monday. And this person simply spoke from the heart for about 30 minutes, about how working with this company. It changed their life but the main thing was what they learned in that meeting even if they’d never moved forward that they found so valuable. And suddenly our people, same script, same list, same everything. Just add belief in the potential value of the meeting, backed up by the words of somebody who got value from that meeting. And they went from setting 3.2% of their conversations to meetings, to setting 12.6% and they did it in one day, just changing the belief switch. And I find that fascinating.

Mark Roberts (04:55):

Yeah. You reframe the mindset. They had a limiting belief. I’m going to go through this. I don’t know if it’s going to be a value. You demonstrated that it was tremendous value. And then they led with worthy intent. I applaud what you did. Oftentimes, they might have the technology, but they lack the training, but you guys provide the script and the coaching and the psychology of the call. I think what’s going to ultimately happen as more manufacturers engage with you, the bottleneck is going to move. It’s going to move to the conversation and it’s going to move to closing. It’s going to move to negotiating, but at least we’ll be having conversations with people that we can serve. And we know they have problems that we can help them with. So, yeah, I think you guys really were onto something back then with the worthy intent.

Chris Beall (05:43):

Well, as a guest at the time, it was desperate because I’d taken on this. Basically it was like a skin in the game contract. It was such a good partner. I decided to do it. And then I realized, oh my God, talk about the tide going out. And then you look go, I forgot my swim trunks. So I felt pretty bad about having taken on that contract. And what I think is interesting is… I’m a very analytic guys. I’m a physicist mathematician by training and you don’t go into those fields unless you’re analytic. I don’t know a lot of people that go, I think for four years, I’m going to sit here and work equations, like partial differential equations and stuff like that because I just think it’s something a person should know how to do it.

Chris Beall (06:31):

You do it because you’re naturally inclined to do it. So I’m a very analytical person and what my analysis would normally have not found. And I think most analytical people would agree with me is putting in potential ingredients, like belief, worthy intent, fun and believing that these are important, concrete, measurable, critical inputs and indications of the quality of outputs. I think funds and indication of the quality of the output that you’re putting out for a mission critical business process on which their entire company’s life depends.

Chris Beall (07:10):

I think a lot of people who become CEOs of these manufacturing companies are pretty analytical people. They’ve got to be.

Mark Roberts (07:16):

They are.

Chris Beall (07:17):

They go out on the floor, I’ve been out on the floor with tons of them and they can see what’s going on. They analyze it quickly. You put the spreadsheet in front of them and they go, “yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s not right” or “that is right” or “that means that’s right”, there like that. So it tends not to occur to them that these things that sound squishy are in fact, the bedrock of success, not for a function, but for the whole company, it just doesn’t seem right. Do you find… Is that a problem as you see it to get them over that hump? How do you get a CEO to go, “oh, belief counts”, right? It makes all the difference.

Mark Roberts (07:57):

Well, and again, I think a lot of times the strategy that I use is they want to see a business case. They want to see proof. So I asked them. Let me have 30 of your people for 60 days. Let me show you what good looks like. And once they see that, it’s just like, when they’re working in the plant and they’re trying to improve efficiency and lower their manufacturing variance, it’s a science. Well, sales can be a science if you know where to look and what data to look at.

Mark Roberts (08:27):

I just started a couple of videos that says, there’s dollars in your data if you know where to look. And what’s nice about ConnectAndSell is it gives you the data and you can constantly coach and improve. So the top of the funnel, if that’s the problem you’re trying to solve, very quickly, you’re going to be able to adjust your message. You’re going to be able to adjust your tone and in constantly make it stronger until you see a repeatable model that works. And then once you get the meeting, how many of those meetings are converting into business? Conversations that turn into revenue? Now that might be your bottleneck, but each one of these involves a training and technology and coaching.

Chris Beall (09:09):

Yeah. Driving that bottleneck down and measuring it and having the data is crucial but it’s rare. I think it’s rare because the current bottleneck for every company I’ve run into for years is actually, I will call it just above the top of the funnel that they measure. And as a result, there’s no metrics coming to them. There’s no data coming to them about the one thing that is holding them back. As soon as you bring the bottleneck down into the sales funnel, almost everybody can at least look at it and go, “oh”, but until it’s there and I say, that’s kind of at discovery, the flow rate of discovery meetings until you make that the bottleneck, the tools. I think that most companies have, that most CEOs have at their disposal to measure progress towards new logos, which are, as far as my experiences, those the profitable logos. There before the procurement department on the other side grinds you down over the years.

Mark Roberts (10:08):

Right.

Chris Beall (10:09):

My dad used to be a head of procurement. So I got to watch what procurement did at home. My dad was ran procurement. So, that maybe that’s why I’m on the sales side now. So, here’s an example, how many companies, how many CEOs would be able to tell you what the prospecting output is? Flow rate is in terms of meetings set per prospecting hour for a rep? Per rep hour spent prospecting?

Mark Roberts (10:40):

I don’t think we [crosstalk 00:10:41].

Chris Beall (10:41):

Would you… have you ever met one [crosstalk 00:10:43].

Mark Roberts (10:43):

I haven’t met one that could do that. What they would do is they would defer to their VP of sales, ask them, and the VP of sales would have to manually try to figure it out with the CRM, but nobody can tell them for [inaudible 00:10:54] that I’m aware of.

Chris Beall (10:56):

Shockening, right? Because every factory you or I have ever been in, you can go to any point in the factory and ask the question, what is the flow rate?

Mark Roberts (11:07):

Correct.

Chris Beall (11:08):

That is produced at this point. And every manufacturer knows the answer to that question. At every point, every process, every machine, every workstation, all the inputs, all the outputs.

Mark Roberts (11:19):

Well, I think that what thrives [crosstalk 00:11:21]. That statement the CEO has make, which is I wish sales would run like my plant. They know that to be true in a plant. The good news is their sales can run like that, but it just takes a different training. It takes different tools and it takes a different mindset, quite frankly, but again, in a weird way, their gut is right. Sales can run like that and can get you predictable results, but it just needs to be run a little bit different, more scientific, more data-driven than it’s ever been before.

Chris Beall (11:55):

Yeah. And I think a lot of people who are going up to try to do something about it, they’ll look at the… What they consider, maybe the more leading edge sales companies like software as a service company, SAS companies, maybe even Silicon valley startups and say, let’s emulate them. So maybe we’ll hire sales, development reps or do whatever. I’ve got data that says that for account executives, especially those experienced once you’ve talked about that you can take them and.. I have hard data by the way. This is a hundreds of reps going through what we call flight school. You can take them from this number, the average when you start them out untrained, even using ConnectAndSell. And you had mentioned dials per hour, ConnectAndSell tends to run about 170, 190 dials per hour per rep. So it’s about two and a half to three days of dialing.

Chris Beall (12:46):

So to speak, that’s done for them per hour. Even with ConnectAndSell. The average number of meeting set per hour per rep is about 0.39. During training, when you take them through a script that works, teach them how to say it, they’re now going through what we call flight school during the blitzes, that number goes up to 0.53, that’s pretty big lift, right?

Mark Roberts (13:12):

Right.

Chris Beall (13:13):

0.14 over 0.39. It’s almost 50%. sustainably in the long run, if they continue to blitz and coach forever, that number actually goes up and up and up. And we’ll stabilize around 0.72. This is the actual numbers that we have right now. And we have some companies that are in the 1.2, 1.3 range, but overall, those experienced reps, not going to sales development reps in a separate department setting meetings for them to setting their own meetings. They can do that at a rate of 0.72 per hour.

Chris Beall (13:49):

So if you kept 30 people and they prospected for an hour… Say an hour a day, at the end of a week, of any given week, that three… For five times 0.72, it’d be about 3.5 meetings per week that they would be able to have that you say they would hold with great competency, those discovery meetings. So 3.5 a week is that’s 850 meetings a year eight something. If you have 30 of them, that’s 30 times 800. Isn’t that a big number? Three times 800 is 2,400, 24,000 meetings a year that it would be having. How could that not move the needle?

Mark Roberts (14:33):

Well, it definitely would. But again, we’ve got to find where the bottleneck is and I think you’re right. I think when it comes to prospecting, the biggest bottleneck is just this the first conversation to get the meeting.

Chris Beall (15:23):

Which means that’s the bottleneck of the whole company. This is the mission I’ve been on is to tell CEOs… I’m a CEO, right? If I couldn’t go to my board and say an answer to a question, where’s the bottleneck of the whole company right now? If I can’t answer that question, I’m doomed. I happen to know in my company where the bottleneck is. The bottleneck in my company’s in discovery. And it’s a mindset issue. In discovery, when your mindset is both to take the next step and to qualify at the same time, it’s an approach avoidance issue. It’s like watching a horse try to jump a gate when it’s not sure it can get over the gate or not sure it should. So it will tend to go around or stop and throw the rider.

Mark Roberts (16:07):

Oh, wow.

Chris Beall (16:08):

There’s a commitment that you’ve got to have to an outcome to accomplish anything. It’s like in a golf swing.

Chris Beall (16:14):

If I’m not sure that say, I’ve got a downhill putt and I’m afraid it’s going to run way by the hole, that uncertainty will make me miss all putt short, long, sideways and everything else because I can’t commit to an outcome. I’m not willing to take the risk. I believe in my company, my reps by and large don’t want to take the risk of taking the wrong prospect through a test drive. And so that’s what I get to a desk. And I would tell my board that, that’s our problem. But our problem is not at the top of the funnel. No. We set 35 meetings a day like clockwork and that’s way more than are needed to run the company. In fact, I’ve got a little slush factor above that. They spill out. Take… I get some leakage up there that’s sideways.

Chris Beall (17:04):

Every CEO should be able to answer that question. I’m flabbergasted. If the problem is sitting right there above the top of their funnel, and that’s the truth, that’s the true bottleneck. Well, they resist that because they haven’t seen it for so many years or are you… Because I look at a guy like you 30 years, 40, whatever. 30… How long is fact 83. 38 years of industrial experience on the sales side, a guy like you should be able to talk to a CEO and say, “hey dude, hard to break this to you. But the bottleneck of your entire company is likely to be in a place where you have zero metrics.”

Mark Roberts (17:47):

I’ll absolutely. Part of my practice is I do sales effectiveness assessments. And those assessments very quickly, we’ll find that people have the will and the desire to hunt. So it’s not like your salespeople are lazy or they don’t want to try to sell. But when you quickly look at all the data, they lack the skills, the conversations, often technology to have those conversations. But once they have the conversation, they usually score very high in presentation skills, the ability to solve customer’s problems, the ability to share insights, they score very high in that. So again, it’s like you said, the theory of constraints, what’s your constraint? Not many people are measuring dials that I’m aware of in the manufacturing space.

Mark Roberts (18:37):

I know that people in large enterprise software companies do measure outbound calls, the closure rate per call, but in manufacturing, it’s not unusual for them to spend a tremendous amount of money to enter into a new market, let’s say. And they’ve spent the development dollars. They spent the capital dollars and then they spend the marketing dollars to open up that market. But what’s right in front of them is just the dials. How are you reaching out? How are you getting those conversations started? Have we gone so far as to rely a hundred percent on marketing? I think that’s a big mistake.

Chris Beall (19:15):

It’s crazy, but it’s done.

Mark Roberts (19:16):

It is done.

Chris Beall (19:17):

I would say here’s the number most folks don’t know at all, which is on average for a manufacturing company, who’s got a high end product to sell. Doesn’t have to be a million dollars, but say, it’s at least 50 to $100,000 per unit that they’re selling, perhaps and that it’s a considered purchase. How many dials should it take with a competent team, well-trained as a target to get a meeting? And the answer is across other manufacturing companies we’re working with 261. So once you know that you’d think you’d want to know, well, okay, are we doing 261 of those whatever per day, per week, per month per rep or not? And yet I would contend most CEOs would look at that and go dial smiles. What’s that? Who cares?

Mark Roberts (20:05):

Right. Again, I think we’ve uncovered the biggest bottleneck for most growth is simply starting the conversation.

Chris Beall (20:13):

So maybe the Biden administration who wants the economy to do well, because that’s what you’re supposed to do as president. Maybe they should be paying attention to this. They want manufacturing to succeed in America, right?

Mark Roberts (20:24):

Absolutely.

Chris Beall (20:25):

And I think what you’re saying is it’s [inaudible 00:20:29] got all the ingredients of success except for one little issue, which is, it’s almost like, imagine. I’m trying to imagine. I’m thinking of a plant and this is happening right now, by the way, in a way, if I was running an automotive plant right now, this is a problem I would have. Semiconductors aren’t coming in predictable.

Mark Roberts (20:48):

Right.

Chris Beall (20:49):

My supply chain people are going crazy trying to find semiconductors. They’re looking at alternate sources of supply. They’re going to designers and saying, can we substitute this chip for these two chips because I can get these? Can you redesign that board?

Chris Beall (21:03):

What can we do? Where are we going? Does anybody have surpluses here and there? Can we go down and quality a little bit? What can we do? And what it feels like if you’re running the plant is it’s fits and starts. It’s like, you’re the one thing that you must have to make a car now is Silicon. You have to have chips. Cars are full of chips nowadays. If I’m missing one of those chips, I can’t ship the car with some critical function like the thing that makes the anti-lock brakes work, not in the car.

Mark Roberts (21:35):

Right.

Chris Beall (21:37):

That’s not they we’re geared. Not allowed to do that. So it’s almost like you have a door that’s on one of your days where you take in your raw materials in your parts in order to feed your factory.

Chris Beall (21:49):

And then the door has a lock on it that opens at random. And it opens every once in a while and then it shuts at random and you go, oh, I guess we got a little something. We can make it, right? Conversations with relevant prospects, play that role in every single company. So we talk about a Silicon shortage or a chip shortage and that’s a disaster for the economy and everybody’s freaking out, everybody’s freaking out. That’s all there is to it, right? And yet we’ve had a conversation shortage that is worse than the chip shortage, but we’ve just gotten used to it and decided that it’s okay.

Mark Roberts (22:29):

One of the biggest challenges that I see is people understand, let’s say prospecting, they might have some skill, but very rarely do I see a team that continuously prospects. So what that ends up being is that rollercoaster ride of great month, poor month, great month, poor month. We’ve got to help our salespeople constantly be reaching out, trying to get new business from new customers, as well as gaining share of wallet at our current accounts. But again, that’s going to require skills and technology to do so.

Chris Beall (23:00):

Is there a part of the manufacturing industry, a sub sector that you think is particularly stressed right now? And therefore might be more open-minded or desperate? I like desperation. Some people, it makes them close-minded. Some people, it makes them creative and finding the creative ones is fairly straightforward. You just talk to enough people and somebody will go, “hey, wait a second. That has really been bothering me.” You have an answer or a possibility in that area. I want to talk to you. Is there some part of manufacturing, the stress right now with all that’s going on that you would say, “yeah, better than others to solve this problem?”

Mark Roberts (23:37):

Well, a number of my clients, whether they’re in building supply, metals, plastics, they went from in the middle of the pandemic, seeing sales declines to now, it’s the bounces is occurring. So they’re struggling just to keep up and grow. But I’d have to think about that. What particular manufacturing area would have the biggest return on investment of fixing the top of their funnel. I think it’s something that would benefit every manufacturer though. I’ve yet to go into a business plan where they didn’t lay out, “okay. What’s our growth plan next year. Okay, what percent of that is organic? What percent of that is net new logos?” And it typically it’s the net new logos that fail year after year.

Mark Roberts (24:21):

You had mentioned sales is getting more difficult. I think it was insidesales.com that’s been tracking what percent of salespeople are hitting quota every year. Since 2016, it’s consistently gone down every year. I think we’re now into the 50 percentile. 56, 53% of salespeople are achieving the quota that the CEO sold to the board and their shareholders. So I think it’s just about positioning and building awareness, quite frankly, because most CEOs are very systematic, pragmatic thinkers. And I think we just need to build the awareness of the impact that this could have on their bottom line.

Chris Beall (25:03):

Well, you know how we do that and I’d love to work with you to help open a couple of minds, really. We do this thing called an intensive test drive. As I say to anybody, don’t even think about this, just try it with a little group for one day and then we’ll talk. And the reason I do that is 10 X is not describable, right?

Chris Beall (25:25):

It’s like saying, I got a 600 mile an hour car. God, doesn’t sound so good. Plus it doesn’t sound so real. So I don’t think you have one of them. And plus if I had one, am I going to drive a 600 mile an hour car? That’s crazy. I can’t do that. So we come in and we got to look. All good CEOs are from Missouri. They all want to show me, don’t tell me. So it goes better than show you, let’s experience it together. Do you think CEOs that you know would actually observe, listen to their reps talking, having dozens or even a hundred plus conversations in a test drive like that? Would they take… Because that’s precious time for them. CEOs time is precious. Would they take 30 minutes or an hour and listen in and go. What? We’re saying that? Or whatever the outcome might be.

Mark Roberts (26:13):

I would think most CEOs would be interested in knowing what their market facing people are saying and what with what frequency, but the test drive being free and what you’re doing is basically creating the business case every CEO needs. So what does good really look like? For years, they’ve been told good looks like three good appointments a month. With a test drive they could see they’re getting 20, 30 appointments a month. Once they see what good looks like, that’s when things are going to change.

Chris Beall (26:47):

Yeah [crosstalk 00:26:48].

Mark Roberts (26:47):

Lot of CEOs I’ve been told that their team is doing really good. They’re doing great. Maybe they’re hitting their numbers by growing their current business, as long as the main number gets hit, right? But what would have happened to your bottom line, if you would have had those net new logos or entered that new market and penetrated it and grew market share just because your salespeople were more efficient and more effective.

Chris Beall (27:13):

It’s fascinating. Well, I’m looking forward to working with you on this. I’d like to have my top [cold 00:27:18] caller, [Cheryl 00:27:20] Turner, if you’re willing to do it. Set meetings for you to meet with CEOs. Cheryl can get CEOs to come to meetings all day long. At first, it’ll be a little rough because it’s a new value prop, but it’d be fascinating just to see what happens if you were to have meetings with CEOs about what you’re doing with them, right? Your business. And see whether any of them might be interested in the experience because I think experience beats talk any day but you got to have talk to talk somebody into having an experience. First time I jumped out of an airplane. It was also the last, but I loved it. Somebody had [inaudible 00:27:58] isn’t it? They had to offer the opportunity, but also say, and here’s the purpose of it.

Chris Beall (28:05):

This experience is going to liberate you from some of your self-limiting beliefs. And hopefully I said it won’t liberate me from life on this planet as I slam into the [inaudible 00:28:15] and it’s not so good.

Mark Roberts (28:15):

Correct. Yeah.

Chris Beall (28:17):

So somebody’s got to have that conversation. Is that something you’d be willing to do if Cheryl were to set some meetings for you if you do?

Mark Roberts (28:24):

Yeah. But again, in the spirit of worthy intent, it would excite me to reach out to manufacturers and show them what good could look like. It would totally change their perception of sales and then actually would validate their belief that sales could run like a plant.

Chris Beall (28:39):

I think that’s the biggest idea I’ve heard of Market Dominance of Guys. I wrote an article four years ago, five years ago, three parts or four parts or five parts and they ask this question, can sales be industrialized? And my answer was yes and I laid out though. If the math and the whole bit, right? It was not a popular article. It’s out there on LinkedIn to this day. You can still go find it, it’s on our blog. I thought it was a breakthrough. I thought, man, I’ve got it right. This is like [inaudible 00:29:11] let’s ask the question. Can sales be industrialized? [Aaron Ross 00:29:14] asked this question about predictable revenue and specialization. Now the one thing you didn’t think needed to be specialized was dialing in navigating the phone itself at that time way back then, that didn’t seem like the thing, right?

Chris Beall (29:28):

So instead it was a specialization around some other functions, including getting the meeting. I actually believe the unit of specialization where the most arbitrage has to be found is right there, dialing and navigating the phone, but not talking to the person, not talking to the target. And the mathematical consequence of all that when you analyze it. So sales can be industrialized. It really can at least down through discovery. So what you’re saying is, I like that you’re phrasing better, which is, the why [inaudible 00:30:01]. Why can’t my sales organization, my sales function run like my shop floor?

Mark Roberts (30:09):

And they can.

Chris Beall (30:11):

That’s a question. And they can. We think they can. Okay.

Mark Roberts (30:14):

No. And I’ve [crosstalk 00:30:14] got you and Cheryl in demonstrating that with those free trials that you’re generous to give because we’re going to show them what good look like.

Chris Beall (30:22):

Oh. Thank you. Yeah. We call it blowing doors, blow some doors off when it is a shocking experience. And that the main thing about it is, and [Matt McCorkell said 00:30:33] this very, very clearly. He said, “you know what? Here’s how I knew it was working on the test drive. And I was personally there and it’s test drive in Milwaukee is plant. But some people are not at the plant at the sales office. People who had never used the phone. And I took him aside after we had brought some beer at the end and we’re talking about it. I said, “what’d you think?” And he said, “I don’t really have to think I’m a very analytical guy, but they were having so much fun that I know it was working.” And I think that might be the thing that we’ll have folks look out for because that is what happens.

Mark Roberts (31:04):

It’s timely brought fun to prospecting.

Chris Beall (31:09):

It is. All right. Well Mark, thanks so much for being on Market Dominance Guys. I see you as saving the nation quite frankly, because manufacturing… Well, I’m serious. I mean, we’ve had a save the world thing that had to happen with the vaccines and that got done miraculously.

Mark Roberts (31:31):

[inaudible 00:31:31].

Chris Beall (31:32):

There you go. Right? Here, we have in a way, it’s not a vaccine. It’s more of a food that can strengthen our manufacturing sector. And when you want manufacturing to grow, you also want to compete. You’re competing with companies around the world. And so I take this pretty seriously as an opportunity and I hope we can work together and bring market dominance to where the manufacturers right here at home and make a huge difference.

Mark Roberts (32:01):

And the good news is, what we’ll close on is elite sellers have one thing in common, which is a utilitarian trait. If I do this, I expect this. When they experience the test drive, they’re never going to look back. They’re going to know how efficient and effective they could be. And that sets the bar because these are like athletes, right? They’re always trying to get better. So I’m excited to work with you.

Chris Beall (32:27):

It’s got to be fun. All right. Well, thanks so much for being on the show too. And Corey, dude, you could have been here for this, the pivotal moment in the entire manufacturing sector, the future of our country. I know you’re a Patriot and you’re here in spirit, my friends. So thanks so much. And everybody, this has been an episode of Market Dominance Guys with Mark Roberts. How to get people get ahold of you? I know Cheryl is going to call them, but say, CEO gets a hold of this and they go, “oh, I got to talk to that mark Robert sky.” What did they-

Mark Roberts (32:59):

I’m an old school guy, right? If you want to find me just Google the words, fixed sales problems. I’m typically number one in the world, but I prefer just to give you myself. That’s how CEOs reach out to me. Three, three, zero four, one, three, eight, five, five, two. I’m an old school guy. I’ve got conversations with people.

Chris Beall (33:17):

Well, I love it. All right. Well, everybody reach out to Mark and fix sales problems if that’s not something worth doing, I don’t know what it is. Thanks so much and see everybody next time on Market Dominance Guys.

Mark Roberts (33:29):

Thanks-

 

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Today on Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall has a discussion about first conversations with Mark Allen Roberts, CEO, and founder of OTB Solutions. Mark and Chris compare notes on how things were in the “old days” of sales, back in the 1980s when they got started in this area of business. Mark recalls that in the old days, you weren’t allowed to go out and sell until you were trained. Nowadays, though, most salespeople aren’t trained. Many don’t even know the purpose of the call they’re making: Their knee-jerk reaction to getting someone on the phone is to immediately start pitching their product. And so, they totally miss the opportunity to use the first 7 seconds of a conversation to establish trust and, thus, begin a relationship that may eventually lead to setting a meeting or making a sale.

—-more—-

Mark further explains why the pitch-first approach is a mistake. “When you’re reaching out on the phone,” he says, “it’s all about worthy intent. Are you reaching out to help somebody? Or are you just trying to hit your numbers?” Your prospects can tell the difference and will react accordingly. If no trust has been established, they will continue to feel ambushed and will maneuver to end the call quickly. Avoid this disaster by learning all there is to know about first conversations from these two experts in this week’s episode of the Market Dominance Guys, “Worthy Intent Will Fill Your Funnel.”

 

About Our Guest

Mark Allen Roberts, CEO, and founder of OTB Solutions, works with company leaders to improve sales and profits by leveraging a data-driven, no smoke and mirrors approach to driving profitable sales growth through assessing sales teams’ skills, motivations, and beliefs and then providing strategic development to improve their performance.

——————————-

Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by

ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com where conversations matter.

  

Uncommon Pro – Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business, so when it’s time to really Go Big, you need to use an Uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ a sequencing that is familiar to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. Through Uncommon Pro’s modern and innovative sales, scripting, and coaching toolset, we offer a guiding hand to ambitious Sales Leaders and their determined teams in their quest to reach market dominance. Today is the day things change. It’s time to get “uncommon” with uncommonpro.com.

 

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Welcome to another episode of Market Dominance Guys with Chris Beall and Corey Frank. Today, our guys continue exchanging ideas with Gregory Smith, CEO at G Group Holdings. In this third part of their discussion, they talk about the view from a CEO’s desk. Chris, who is himself a CEO, thinks that most chief executive officers’ view of their company is often skewed by the remove at which they look at its operations. As he puts it, “They tend to be either stuck in the mud or full of fantasy.” Greg and Chris then reveal that they are both true believers in C-level staff getting out on the frontline and experiencing the jobs their employees do.

—-more—-

“If you want to be an effective CEO or even a VP or SVP,” Greg advises, “you’ve got to get out in the field and experience it, feel it, understand it.” He encourages all CEOs to spend the day with one staff member in each division of their business once a year. Chris agrees with this plan. “When you do that,” he says, “you grow in respect for your people who are on the front lines. You see that what they do is brilliant.” Get the details on how to dominate your market by spending time with the talented people you’ve hired in today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Stuck in the Mud or Full of Fantasy.”

About Our Guest

Gregory Smith is CEO of G Group Holdings. He is a confident, self-motivated, multi-faceted business leader, and entrepreneur with extensive experience planning and executing strategies that result in substantial revenue and profit generation. 

——————————-

Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by

ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com where conversations matter.

 

Branch49- Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it’s time to really go big, you need to use an uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employee successful sequencing that is fresh enough to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world, from crafting just the right cold call screenplays to curating and mapping the ideal call list for your entire term, Branch49’s modern and innovative sales toolbox offers a guiding hand to ambitious organizations in their quest to reach market dominance. Learn more branch49.com

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In this Market Dominance Guys’ episode, Chris Beall and Corey Frank continue their conversation with Gregory Smith, CEO of G Group Holdings. They’re talking today about talent acquisition and development, which Greg says is about 60–80% of most companies’ expenses — and could be one of the significant reasons why some businesses don’t grow. He believes that a company is only as good as its people and the way its people treat customers. With the goal of inspiring his own team to reach for that high customer-service bar, Greg explains his approach in this way: “I’m a coach, I’m a mentor, and I appropriate the resources my team needs to be rock stars.”

—-more—-

The guys then segue into a conversation about the importance of bringing employees in on the reasoning behind what they are being asked to do. Chris and Corey refer to this explanation as “the why,” and you’ll hear how each of these three experts is a believer in this part of talent development. Here’s Greg’s explanation of how he uses this approach in leading his team: “First, I provide the strategic vision and make sure they understand ‘the why.’ Then, I get the hell out of the way and let them do their job.” Pause for a few moments from your own job to take in all the insights and advice you’ll hear on today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “Why ‘the Why’ Is So Essential.”

 

About Our Guest

Gregory Smith is CEO of G Group Holdings. He is a confident, self-motivated, multi-faceted business leader, and entrepreneur with extensive experience planning and executing strategies that result in substantial revenue and profit generation. 

——————————-

Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by

ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com where conversations matter.

  

Branch49- Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it’s time to really go big, you need to use an uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employee successful sequencing that is fresh enough to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world, from crafting just the right cold call screenplays to curating and mapping the ideal call list for your entire term, Branch49’s modern and innovative sales toolbox offers a guiding hand to ambitious organizations in their quest to reach market dominance. Learn more branch49.com

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Today, our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, interview Gregory Smith, CEO, G Group Holdings. Corey introduces Greg as an “M&A whisperer,” which Greg lives up to as he reveals insights gleaned from his work with mergers and acquisitions. How can he tell if a company is going to survive and thrive? Greg says that he begins with two questions: “Does your company’s product or service fill a particular niche? And does your product or service solve a specific problem for customers?” Greg then warns our podcast listeners against being a “one product or service — and done” business. As he explains it, you can occupy a great niche and have a fabulous customer solution, but you need to continue to develop and augment what you’re offering. He illustrates his point with an example from Starbucks’ early days in business and then goes on to tell a cautionary tale of a company that pioneered bacon-infused vodka.

—-more—-

The guys switch over to talking about customer service and how your company’s treatment of customers defines your business more than any product or service ever could. You won’t want to miss this eye-opener and other examples of what can cause businesses to succeed or fail on today’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “One and Done Is the Loneliest Number.”

 

About Our Guest

Gregory Smith is CEO at G Group Holdings.  Gregory Smith is a Senior Executive with extensive experience starting, growing, selling, managing, and acquiring Electrical Distribution companies with revenues between One Million and Two Hundred Million dollars.

——————————–

Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by

ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com where conversations matter.

  

Uncommon Pro – Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it’s time to really go big, you need to use an uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employee successful sequencing that is fresh enough to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world, from crafting just the right cold call screenplays, to curating and mapping the ideal call list for your entire term, Branch49’s modern and innovative sales toolbox offers a guiding hand to ambitious organizations in their quest to reach market dominance. Learn more at branch49.com

The complete transcript of this episode is below:

 

 

Corey Frank (02:19):

Chris, good afternoon.

Chris Beall (02:23):

Corey, is that you?

Corey Frank (02:26):

Once again. We have a special edition today where this is the… Is this the drinking edition of the Market Dominance Guys? I think it is, right? So Chris, what have you got there in your glass?

Chris Beall (02:35):

This is would be Macallan 12. It’s nice and simple. I’m just having it with my favorite accoutrement, air.

Corey Frank (02:41):

Air? Probably a nice soft [bree 00:02:46], okay. As for me, I am drinking a Jocko white pomegranate tea. And if you’ve noticed, we have a special guest in the other panel here of our discussion. We have Greg Smith. Greg, we’re honored to have Greg today.

Corey Frank (03:00):

Greg is an M&A whisperer, a true dirt floor operator. And I think many times, Chris, when we talk about the Market Dominance Guys, we are enamored. We are seduced by people who have taken a lot of these practices and dominated a market. And I think Greg clearly as we uncover and unpack Greg’s story, that he’s done it again and again.

Corey Frank (03:25):

So he has the unlock code for many entrepreneurs and for many businesses that are just existing and not growing and how to kind of bust out. So Greg welcome, and what’s in your glass?

Gregory Smith (03:40):

Thanks guys. It’s a pleasure to be here. And I don’t know about the unlock code, but I guess if you rate the number of mistakes I’ve made in my 40 year career, they’re pretty extensive. So I guess mistakes sometimes can equate into lessons learned. So yes, I am drinking Don Julio 70 on the rocks and the secret there is two lime wedges and a splash of orange juice, just a splash.

Gregory Smith (04:07):

And I think Don Julio 70 is probably some of the best tequila out there. It’s just nice and smooth as Blanco and Silver. So it’s just nice and smooth.

Corey Frank (04:16):

Okay-

Gregory Smith (04:18):

[inaudible 00:04:18] afternoon.

Corey Frank (04:19):

That’s right. Well, speaking of nice and smooth, Chris, I know you have a little story about how you kind of ran into Greg and we have very stringent criteria to be a guest on Market Dominant Guys, right? I mean, it’s a multi-page questionnaire. And I think there’s a blood palette.

Corey Frank (04:36):

I mean, there’s all kinds of things, but ultimately Greg passed all those with flying colors. And what are we going to talk about, Chris, with Greg today in the area of market dominance?

Chris Beall (04:44):

Well, we usually are talking to people that are kind of out of the SAS world or the tech sales world or whatever it happens to be. Greg comes out of a different world. And I think sometimes people are skeptical about market dominance being the play, the only safe play when you kind of are not in the world of fast-moving technology.

Chris Beall (05:05):

And I think Greg can bring us a perspective on the importance of market dominance in industries that you would think are, I would almost say beyond commodity. The distribution industry might be the most beyond commodity industry around in a way. They’re called middlemen for a reason. And generally what one is trying to do with the middleman is to do what the surgeon does with the appendix, cut them out, right?

Chris Beall (05:32):

And so how do you make market dominance happen when people in by and large think of you as an appendix to be cut out? Why is that important and how do you do it? And I think I disagree with Greg about the unlock code itself, or I think he’s being a little coy. The unlock code literally is made out of mistakes. You manufacture the unlock code out of errors.

Chris Beall (05:55):

And so I’m really fascinated to hear about the big mistakes and what the learnings are, and then about the application of those learnings to situations where it wasn’t obvious a market could be dominated. But in fact, that’s what happened.

Corey Frank (06:12):

Exactly. Greg, for you to say you’ve had many mistakes amongst your four plus different companies that you’ve taken to maturity and still be there drinking Don Julio versus some rail. It’s not real tequila, right? So obviously you fail your way up. You fell upward, you tripped upward. So to Chris’s point, let’s talk about some of those.

Gregory Smith (06:34):

The reason I’m still here is because I’m drinking Don Julio.

Corey Frank (06:39):

Duly noted.

Gregory Smith (06:41):

I look pretty good for 85, don’t I?

Corey Frank (06:44):

That’s right.

Chris Beall (06:44):

Damn frisky, as we say in these parts. Damn frisky.

Corey Frank (06:49):

So I’m a manufacturer, I’m a distributor today, Greg and I’ve been in the business for 15 years, but really I’ve been in the business one year 15 times. I just can’t break out. You’re the doctor coming in in the lab coat, what are you diagnosing me for? What are the key levers that from your purview now that you’ve had these challenges and you’ve figured it out, what likely am I doing wrong?

Gregory Smith (07:18):

Yeah. So, that’s some great questions there. So as I look at what it takes to create market dominance for most industries, right? Most companies, most industries, there’s probably about seven or eight or maybe nine, I would say, key attributes to achieving that. And I think it kind of starts with what is your solution, right? And what is your niche?

Gregory Smith (07:47):

And if you can’t provide a unique niche in the marketplace or solve a problem or become a solution provider, it becomes really hard to scale your business if you’re just amongst the masses. And I have to say, most of my career has been distribution, specifically really in electrical distribution. You can’t get much more commoditized than that.

Gregory Smith (08:14):

Yes, there are services that have expanded within that industry over the years to allow for some elasticity, if you will, in the profits. But by and large, you’re selling what everybody else sells. So it becomes very difficult to become a differentiator, and services is certainly one of the ways to do that.

Gregory Smith (08:35):

So, I think one of the first things as I mentioned is kind of what is your niche in the marketplace, right? What problem are you solving for a customer? If you can answer one or both of those, you’re way more apt to succeed. And frankly, you’re way more apt to grab some scalability of your business.

Gregory Smith (08:55):

I talked to a lot of folks, a lot of companies over the years, and I do a bit of consulting on the side and one of the first things I ask them is what is your USP? Or what is it that you’re… What problem are you solving or what niche in the marketplace are you looking to kind of hear to? And usually what I get is a lot of blank stares, right?

Gregory Smith (09:20):

Or I get a lot of wordsmithing, but nothing that’s really tangible that clients and customers can kind of latch on to. So that’s important, right? You have to identify that. And it reminds me of that book, Wide Ocean, right? So if you don’t have a niche, you’re swimming in wide ocean, and the small guys are nipping at you because they figured out the niche.

Gregory Smith (09:46):

The big guys are nipping at you because they’ve got scale and volume. Manufacturers are not giving you the full attention that you should have because you don’t have the scalability or the volume. You’re in that blue ocean. You just churn in and you can, you can make a living. I’ve seen companies do that.

Gregory Smith (10:03):

I see a nice little 10, 15, 20, $30 million companies that have been around for 80 years that haven’t really grown and they fill an itch and they’re able to survive. And it’s what I would call a generational business or kind of family business, right? It generates enough profits for the family and that’s all they’re looking to do. And that’s okay.

Gregory Smith (10:26):

But if companies are looking to grow, they have to kind of go beyond that. And so it also reminds me of a story. I don’t know if you guys remember, I actually bought it once and thought it was disgusting. But there’s entire company, it was a vodka company probably maybe 10 years ago, eight, nine years ago, created an entire business model around handcrafted bacon infused vodka. Do you guys remember that?

Chris Beall (10:55):

That sounds good though. I’m going to go out for some right now. I’ll be back.

Gregory Smith (11:01):

I don’t think they’re still around. Yeah, they might be, but… And trust me, I love bacon. I love everything bacon. Bacon infused vodka didn’t taste all that good. But anyway, they built an entire model out. So the concept was good, right? They wanted to swim in a space where no one was.

Gregory Smith (11:21):

Now what they ended up doing, which I think is unique, is they started the flavor vodka launch if you will, right? This whole phenomenon. Now, if you go to the liquor store, you can have every flavor of vodka you want. Where they dropped the ball was concept was good, the niche was good. However, they didn’t expand on it. They did bacon vodka. It kind of failed.

Gregory Smith (11:51):

And instead of taking it and expanding on it, they just went away. So again, it’s realizing what does that niche solve a problem? And then if you can do that, expand on it. But if it doesn’t quite work, tweak it and keep going. And as I think about another one, it’s you got to make sure that you continue to develop your product or your service.

Gregory Smith (12:15):

You can’t just be a one and done. You can’t have, and I’ve seen this before and I’m sure you guys have seen this, where you’ve got a company that beginning up, they hit a million dollars. They’re high fiving, that’s great. They hit that first milestone. Then they hit five and then they hit 10. They continue to high five. But as you look at that trajectory, they start to level off or they have leveled off for five to 10 years, right?

Gregory Smith (12:42):

So they can’t get beyond that. And there’s different evolutions within companies that we could certainly talk about, and what you need to do at each level in terms of shoring up the foundation with people and services and products and all that stuff. But you shore up that foundation that allows you then to grow up to the next level, you shore up that foundation, go to the next level, so on and so forth.

Gregory Smith (13:02):

So, just because you have a good idea or one service in the beginning doesn’t mean that it possesses that that elasticity, if you will, or scalability to continue to survive, [inaudible 00:13:15] but then continue to grow to get to some sort of market dominance, right? So this is especially true in the wholesale distribution business, because it is such a competitive business to be in.

Gregory Smith (13:27):

So I’m trying to think of an example for this one would be, well, as you think about Starbucks, right? In terms of how they evolved, Starbucks started out selling coffee, pretty much it. [No loss 00:13:40] for flavors and this and that and cappuccinos and all that stuff, but they quickly capped out. If you look at their public statements, they quickly capped out on revenue.

Gregory Smith (13:54):

I mean, they went like this admittedly, right? And then they capped out and shareholders, and I don’t care if the shareholder is you guys, me, Joe around the block or stockholders, right? Either case, the shareholders are like, “Yeah, that doesn’t work for us.” You’re trading at a 20x multiple than originally you were doing.

Gregory Smith (14:58):

Now coming from a distribution business and a 5% UBIT, that’s pretty nice. So Starbucks also, you can look at their statements. They also obviously made a lot of money on coffee, but did two things that allowed them to continue to grow as well as increased profitability.

Gregory Smith (15:17):

So then I think the third one, which is really interesting that could be good or bad by the way, is what are the external forces that you don’t have control over, but that you can adapt to or change with, right? So, external forces, I think is a big one and there’s a variety of them. There’s social, culture, economics, demographics, science, technology, you guys mentioned technology, right?

Gregory Smith (15:49):

Legal, political, God forbid, right? All these things. So all of these affect your business and market trends and how people buy. Look at the revolution of the e-commerce in all industries to say nothing about the industrial B2B industry, right? So that was struggling to get e-commerce adoption by its customers.

Gregory Smith (16:16):

And over the previous five years on average is about one to 2% of top line sales. That is a 20x, and that took five years. And in one year, it’s a 20x increase, right? So this pandemic changed, it was an external force, and changed the marketplace for business. So I’ve said this in a couple of postings, I think industrial B2B business is in the midst of a black swan profit event.

Gregory Smith (16:49):

And here’s what I mean by that. So you look at the convergence today, right? Of we’re nearing the end of the pandemic, again, “hopefully”, right? If there’s not a variant that comes out that doesn’t work with the vaccine or is vaccine resistant, then obviously that’s a problem. There’s some caveats here, but let’s assume that we’re nearing the end of this.

Gregory Smith (17:15):

By June, I don’t know, 200 million out of 330 million people in the US, 200 million will be vaccinated. There’s probably another 75 or 80 million that have already had it and didn’t even know it, right? So we’re going to get to that. Got a herd immunity phase and businesses are already starting to pick up, right? So we’re nearing the end of the pandemic.

Gregory Smith (17:39):

The economy is picking up. Look at the numbers yesterday on unemployment claims, right? There are pre-pandemic levels and commodity prices are on the increase. Now, again, that could be considered good and bad, it depends on where it goes and how much longer it goes. But currently today, if you look within distribution, most distributors are seeing price increases weekly.

Gregory Smith (18:06):

And in some cases, manufacturers, now here we are April, mid April, manufacturers have given distributors, if not one price increase by now, which is pretty standard. Now they’re on their second, and then some manufacturers on their third, combined with supply chain issues where you can’t get products, right? So all of these things equate to a black swan profit event for distributors if they manage it correctly.

Gregory Smith (18:40):

That’s the key, if they manage it correctly. And so that’s just one example, I think of external force that can help a business. And obviously, there’s external forces that hinder your business. If you’re all bricks and mortar and you’re not doing any e-commerce site and you’re selling, I don’t know, paperclips. Yeah, you’re not going to be around much longer, right?

Corey Frank (19:02):

Greg, you go back to your example about the bacon infused vodka, right? And Chris, you and I have spoken a lot about this with Market Dominance, is that the number one… And it’s interesting to hear your examples in the manufacturing distribution industry, Greg, because again, what Chris and I in our experience in what we’ve seen from market dominance on the SAS side, certainly expand to others as we’ve talked about.

Corey Frank (19:28):

But the number one mistake that we say in Market Dominance is that people don’t go and get the meetings or the feedback before they build a product, right? Chris, you talked a lot about this as the… It’s literally the proverbial cart before the horse problem that is disastrous because the cart ultimately leads the horse off of a cliff, right?

Corey Frank (19:52):

And then we tie into the famous chasm and we’ve done a number of episodes, Chris, on the chasm, Geoffrey Moore’s chasm, because then you go down to that chasm and there is no revenue down there. And clearly there’s no… There’s loads of broken bacon infused vodka bottles, that’s about it, that’s down there, but here’s no revenue.

Corey Frank (20:14):

So, Chris, what do you say just listening to Greg here is that those parallel is about they didn’t test the market that built the product and didn’t get any feedback loops? They thought it was a good idea in their own minds, but that was about where it stopped.

Chris Beall (20:29):

Well, I mean, the most common problem in solving problems is finding out whether there’s a problem and then finding out whether you can solve it. And then finding out whether you can restrict those that you decide to solve it for in a way that allows them to identify with each other and say, oh, if it worked for Corey, it’ll work for me.

Chris Beall (20:49):

That’s the trifecta business. People talk about product market fit like it comes magically out of a bacon infused vodka bottle, right? Oh, well, now that we have product market fit, it’s like, what in the world does that even mean? It’s not some mystery. You go talk to folks and you say, thinking about doing this and you listen carefully to what they have to say and make sure that you don’t tweak the message on everyone.

Chris Beall (21:17):

It’s called thrash. Fish thrash nicely on the decks of boats after they’ve been brought up. You don’t want to be that fish. It’s not a path to dominance. You have to actually take your product as words to the market and then to a hypothetical market. And then let that experience tell you first is this hypothetical market even a market? That is what they talk to each other.

Chris Beall (21:41):

Think about that question that’s never asked, which is, hey, I just talked to to Mary and if Mary were to embrace what we’re doing, would that actually make it easier for you to take a look at it? It’s a good question to ask. That’s the ultimate question of referenceability. That is you don’t want to solve a problem that if you solved it you’d realize you’d done nothing of value.

Chris Beall (22:03):

So why go into what you think is a market, which is defined as an inter referenceable set of folks that is if one buys it makes it instantly cheaper and lower risk for everybody else to buy instantly because of that first reference, right? That’s what it means to cross the chasm. You get that reference. And then use that one to get another and another and another, but your market has to be in a referencing, but that’s a hypothesis.

Chris Beall (22:29):

So until you get your hypothesis validated and the cheapest way to validate it is through talk. That’s why bars are actually pretty good. That’s why if you want to do this really well, find truth serum of some sort. Now, we talk about this all the time that the lie serum, the anti truth serum is the cold call. You will not tell me the truth in the cold call except about one thing.

Chris Beall (22:52):

And you won’t even tell me the truth about it, except in your actions. Your strong desire to get off the call with your self image intact. When I cold call you, I know what the truth is. So why don’t we just get that one done with and get to a meeting? Because the first truth serum is the voluntary nature of coming to a meeting with somebody.

Chris Beall (23:12):

I had a meeting today with the CFO of a company in the plywood industry. Now you might be asking, what the heck is Chris Beall doing meeting with the CFO of a big company in the plywood industry? And the answer is I wanted to find out whether a solution, which is our flight school packaged and thought of in a certain way, would be interesting to a CFO of a big company.

Chris Beall (23:40):

Because I had advice from somebody that said you should go get that information as a potential market, right? The entry point into the market. So I talked to said CFO. It was an eight minute conversation, eight minutes and 49 seconds. In fact, super conversation. And he said the following, “We have more demand than we can satisfy and probably will for the next 18 months.

Chris Beall (24:04):

So while I see that your product might have been interesting to me at one time and might be interesting in the future, we’re not in that situation.” Which lets me immediately do a little product market fit work, which is to say, ah, I’m going to take that information and make a list of a subset of the companies I want to talk to whose experts say are in trouble with demand because of the pandemic, great.

Chris Beall (24:32):

So I didn’t find out it’s not good to talk to CFOs. And by the way, that conversation costs me literally eight minutes and 49 seconds. That was the total cost. That was it. No dollars, no nothing. My time’s worth nothing as everybody in the earth knows. CEO’s time is the most fungible commodity in the world, and the beauty is that the numerator is zero.

Chris Beall (24:52):

You multiply it out and you get the same number all the time. CEOs like to say they’re worth a lot, but their time actually at the margin has always cost zero. It’s probably worth zero. So it’s a good example right there. Plywood, right? Would you have guessed? You might have that a plywood company right now would be facing a year to two of capacity shortage.

Chris Beall (25:14):

I didn’t know that. I learned it. So that brings me to a fourth point, which is go-to-market is more about learning than it is about selling, but the only way we can learn is to sell. And this is the conundrum that faces everybody in go-to-market is well, I have to have something to sell. You’ve got a problem.

Chris Beall (25:34):

You need to learn, and the only way to learn is to sell. Because until you’re in that meeting, that scheduled meeting where they came to you… Because that CFO told me the truth, right? On a cold call, here’s what he told Cheryl. He told Cheryl Turner this. Because she said, “I’ll send you a meeting invite and we’ll reschedule.”

Chris Beall (25:55):

He came to the meeting. He said, “I have no idea what this meeting’s about.” You know what I said, Corey? Fantastic, right? Because we’re going to learn together. So I think people tend to skip the learning step because most of the risk of failure hides inside of learning.

Chris Beall (26:13):

And we’re not confident in our ability to learn deliberately, and so we skip that step and we would rather plunge into the chasm and be licking up the dry vodka hoping that the bacon flavor is bacon. Dealing with the glass cuts on our tongues and eventually becoming bones like those behind Greg there.

Chris Beall (26:33):

And we do that happily because learning as a deliberate process is so frightening that most entrepreneurs will turn down the opportunity to learn in favor of their urge to act.

Gregory Smith (26:48):

By the way, if I could just add two things to that. So, the first one is that you’re absolutely correct, right? This communication to really understand the market that you want to create a product for a solution for, right? The challenge is some of that work actually does get done.

Gregory Smith (27:09):

However, it gets done by the people who are trying to create the niche or identify the niche or solve the problem. We all know we have biases on our belief systems, right? So my philosophy has always been hire other people to do that investigative work, right? That sales work that you call it, to ask the questions, to help identify and/or support your belief.

Gregory Smith (27:37):

But hire others to do it that don’t have a stake in the game. And by doing that, you get a lot more information. Because again, talking with companies, talking with startups and helping startups get from point A to point B, to your point, you guys, that’s one of the first questions I ask is, have you done some market studies research? Show me what you’ve done, blah, blah, blah.

Gregory Smith (28:00):

And 50% of them say yes, and here’s the data. And we made these calls, we did this and we did that. And half of them were leading questions, right? And none of them are really done, I think, correctly, because now they’re in this box where they’ve spent $1 million, they generated 20,000 revenue. And they’re wondering why this thing is stalling out, right?

Gregory Smith (28:22):

And so they didn’t really get an understanding of the marketplace and what their product or service was going to solve or the niche that they were going to be in that there really wasn’t a need for. So completely agree with you. Then I would take it to the next level, which is communicating with your customer on an ongoing basis, right?

Gregory Smith (28:45):

Creating those conversations with your customers, not just in the beginning, but throughout really your company life cycle. So I used to do these things called customer councils and they were kind of unique, and you had to be a member of the customer council in order to come. We did them once a year.

Gregory Smith (29:06):

It was full blown dinner, steaks, nice restaurant, all they got, hats, t-shirts, jackets. They got some really nice swag stuff for attending. And the deal was that I was there as a leader, but their immediate, their sales team couldn’t be there. Their regionals couldn’t be there. Branch managers couldn’t be there.

Gregory Smith (29:29):

Nobody that they deal with on a day-to-day basis couldn’t be there, because I wanted that kind of open and honesty. And so the deal was there was a eight page questionnaire, which took them 10 minutes to fill out. We had a 45 minute conversation, open conversations with everybody in the room about what’s working, what isn’t working. If you were the CEO of this company, what would be the first thing you would do?

Gregory Smith (29:59):

How can we get better? What problems you need us to solve? And we got so much valuable information out of those customer councils. But I just use that as one example. There’s a lot of different ways you can do that, but you got to constantly check the pulse of the customer and get that honest feedback to make sure that you continue. It may have worked in the beginning.

Gregory Smith (30:26):

Five years later, external forces change, customers change, customers needs change. All of those things change, so you’ve got to keep doing those gut checks to be able to do that. And there’s a guy that I really like that I follow a fair amount. And this guy, Simon Sinek, do you guys know Simon?

Corey Frank (30:46):

Yap.

Chris Beall (30:46):

Oh, yeah.

Gregory Smith (30:47):

Good guy, right? One of the first things I fell in love with is getting to why, right? What is your USP? Why? Whatever it happens to be, but I found that extremely valuable. And I think it’s true. I think as companies are able to identify the why and then get employees to understand the why and buy into it, and then equally as important, getting the customer to understand the why, right?

Gregory Smith (31:16):

Why did the customer buy from you? Customers have options to buy the same product from 100 different people. Actually, no, thousands of different people, right? Why did they buy from you? And that’s what you really have to understand. If you can understand that, and if you can get customers to buy into that, then you start talking about exponential growth opportunity because it just starts… It’s compounding, right? And it just starts building.

Corey Frank (31:45):

That product market fit, Greg and Chris that you guys are talking about, right? That’s why, right? Get to the cynics. Why does somebody want my product? I mean, the number one reason that startup companies fail or they run out of money rather is they end up building a product that they think the market wants and the market doesn’t want, right?

Corey Frank (32:06):

And again, we call this product market fit and everybody talks about it endlessly, as Chris was saying, and they put the cart before the horse. But what do you guys say to that from a messaging perspective, right? It seems like the message is the product and the why about what problem does this solve is the product.

Corey Frank (32:29):

And getting to that discovery process, that flywheel of feedback seems to be the key in to your market. So you can kind of have a relatively fail safe way, but it’s a process, right? Is that what you’re finding with a lot of your companies that maybe they’re stumbling into this and they don’t know that this is a concerted process, this flywheel attempt? Or they’re kind of Forrest Gumping themselves into product market fit, so to speak.

Gregory Smith (33:00):

Kind of both, right? But I don’t think it’s ever about products. I really don’t. Unless you’re doing something specific like the bacon vodka, right? Unless you’re doing something really specific to the marketplace, it’s never… Think about Apple, right? People pay 10 times more for an Apple phone than they do any other phone. Why, right?

Gregory Smith (33:22):

Its features and benefits are the same when you buy a Google phone, an Apple phone, or I don’t know. I don’t know who’s out there because I have an Apple. But people pay a lot of money because of the Apple products. And so why, right? Well, Because it’s cool. It’s this, it’s that. Young people did it, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Gregory Smith (33:39):

All that stuff that generates that demand, but people didn’t buy it because it was the best phone in the marketplace. They bought it because of Apple. And so what you sell is never your product. It’s always you and your services and your people and the solution and the niche and all those things. Products are secondary.

Gregory Smith (34:07):

And I think if companies think about that differently, then your go-to-market strategy is different, right? Your talent acquisition is different. Think about all the folks that have been out of work in the last year, all your bartenders and waiters and waitresses. And I feel bad for those folks who are restaurant owners, all that stuff. Think about how those people work every day to solve customer problems.

Gregory Smith (34:38):

If I was a customer service company hiring people in customer service, I would have made the biggest bang and the biggest push to go out and find the best waiters and waitresses and bartenders I could find. Because they’re the people that get it. They understand it. They live it every single day, right? So your talent acquisition is different.

Gregory Smith (35:02):

All these things are different than trying to sell features and benefits. Features and benefits selling really has never worked, and certainly doesn’t work today, in my opinion. I don’t know, Chris, do you feel differently?

Chris Beall (35:13):

I agree 100%. I’ve got a good example on that customer service solving problems thing. So we were out, my fiance, Helen and I were out at what’s called The Grill here in Quail Creek two nights ago. And it was a pretty lazy move. It was end of a long day. I didn’t want to cook. I normally cook.

Chris Beall (35:35):

She didn’t want to cook. And so we went out and we sat down in the wind and we ordered our food, and the waitress seemed really good. She was very attentive. She was quick. She didn’t interrupt the conversation. My least favorite thing for a wait staff to do is to come over and start talking in the middle of a conversation, which with me is all the time. So, it was wonderful.

Chris Beall (36:00):

Then suddenly it went weird and we’re looking at each other going, where’s the silverware? We have nothing to eat with. We have food, nothing to eat with. Where’s my margarita? It hasn’t showed up. I don’t think it takes them 10 minutes to make a margarita and bring it over. I know I asked for the good tequila, but that’s just like you open the bottle and you do the thing.

Chris Beall (36:20):

And so, was that a bad waitress or a good waitress? This is where I think talent management really is interesting. Getting to the underlying truth about somebody in service is challenging and gold. So I determined that that waitress who disappeared and left us high and dry for 10 minutes was fantastic.

Chris Beall (36:41):

And here’s how. When she came back and she had put somebody else in charge and that person kind of dropped the ball. When she came back, she said, “I’m so sorry. There was a snake right over there. And I caught it and I decided to take it out in the desert and let it go, and it took me a little while to get over there and back.”

Chris Beall (37:03):

Now, here’s where she kind of screwed up as a customer service person. She said with emotion, “You want to see it?” And she reached into her apron pocket. Not good. Don’t ever say, do you want to see a snake and reach into your pocket, especially not with my fiance at the table, because she is not exactly pro-snake, I would say.

Chris Beall (37:21):

So I said, “Yeah, show it to me.” And I knew it was a video. So she showed me the video of the little snake, little rat snake, crawling all over her hands. But do I want that person on my team? Is the point to Greg’s point. And the answer is yes, because that’s somebody who takes the situation and situational awareness and realizes, I may leave this couple here for a bit, but that snake crawling around them in the feet of the table at 10 over here, that’s a disaster for our business.

Chris Beall (37:50):

And she made the decision and took an action that had no immediate pat on the back from anybody and did it for the true good of the situation. And these people are everywhere if you go find them. And I agree, customer service is the most amazing of the commodities. I’m wearing my favorite shirt, right? You’ve seen this before, Corey.

Chris Beall (38:15):

This is from the AA-ISP executive retreat. And I wear the shirt because, rather proudly and I’m not proud of that many things, our company has won the American Association of Inside Sales Professionals Service Provider of the Year for seven years in a row. And we never intend to lose it, and it’s the most important thing about our company.

Chris Beall (38:36):

And when we hire somebody, that’s what we’re looking for. But the best part is, I get four or five times a week, some CEO or VP of sales have called me up and say, I just have got to tell you, your people are different. Your people are different. They’re not only experts, but I feel like they’re more on our team than we are on our team.

Chris Beall (39:00):

They’re more insistent on our success than we knew we should be. And that’s where I think you get the big differentiator. It [isn’t 00:39:10] product. And by the way, we have a very unique product. I mean, very unique as an oxymoron or an idiot redundancy or some stupid grammatical thing like that. But I’ll repeat it anyway, we have a very unique product.

Chris Beall (39:21):

One of a kind, the only one in the world. But that’s not what’s interesting. What’s interesting is that our people by and large will be on your team more than your own team’s on your team.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

In today’s episode of the Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank continue their conversation about the unifying convergence of B2B and B2C sales tactics with Jeff Lerner, CEO and founder of Entre Institute. The product Jeff’s company offers its customers is empowerment for people wanting to have a better, more successful life. As he explains it, “Everyone wants an awesome life. There’s nothing special about wanting one, but defining your awesome life and executing on a strategic plan to create it, regardless of personal circumstances, is something most don’t ever do. You have to be committed to excellence.”

In talking about why excellence isn’t pursued by most people, Chris explains, “Excellence is a form of exile from the community they grew up in — in which people mostly complained about how bad things are in their lives.” Jeff simplifies the process of switching from complaining to pursuing an “awesome” life with his offer of Entre’s blueprint, which lays out three areas of concentration — personal, professional, and physical — which he has named the “3 Ps.” Listen to Chris, Corey, and Jeff discuss the 3Ps, plus the particulars of how Jeff dominates his market using social media videos, and how that B2C approach correlates with the Market Dominance Guys’ B2B approach of “conversations first” on today’s episode, “Do You Want an Awesome Life?”

—-more—-

 

About Our Guest

Jeff Lerner is CEO and founder of Entre Institute, which provides business training, inspiration, and personal support through videos, messaging, online workshops, and one-on-one interaction for entrepreneurs who want to create online businesses and awesome lives. 

——————————–

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The complete transcript of this episode is below:

Chris Beall (02:08):

Who was it… You probably are a little bit more educated than I am in the field, but I think it was… was it Jim Rohn who said the definition of success is a few simple disciplines repeated every day, and the definition of failure is a few simple errors in judgment repeated every day? What I hear you saying is that [inaudible 00:02:28] brought half a beer, I like beer, or about to have a water. If I’m looking at number one, the physical, excellent. If I just follow that guiding light, right?

Corey Frank (02:40):

Right. 

Chris Beall (02:41):

That’s simple enough for… I bet you tell your children this, I bet you talk to high schoolers about a simple roadmap compass for excellence. 

Corey Frank (02:41):

Totally.

Jeff Lerner (02:49):

And if you’ve got a message as big and broad as mine, you have to find language that says, “Broadly accessible.” I can explain 3 P’s of excellence to a five-year-old and a 95-year-old and get the same nod.

Corey Frank (03:03):

What would you say, Chris, are those equivalent 3 P’s of excellence in our world from a B2B pitch? If I’m a business starting off, and I recently got some funding and trying to decide if I should hire a sales team, but I got to get to product market fit, what are those may be four, maybe five, maybe six, maybe one, but what are those equivalent three tablets coming down the mountain, if you will, in the B2B world that are equitable to what Jeff said in the B2C world?

Chris Beall (03:34):

Well, I think let’s try to map them straight up and see what happens. That’s always fun, right?

Corey Frank (03:34):

Mm-hmm (affirmative). 

Chris Beall (03:38):

The mathematician in may says, “Let’s try one-to-one and onto.” So what’s the equivalent of the physical? In the B2B world, the physical is actually what we offer. It’s our product, it’s the offering. And we’re either working on the offering to make it better or not, but that’s the equivalent of the physical. And when we look at the personal, in the B2B world… This is really hard. It’s true in every business. But it’s our reason for doing this that actually works for somebody else’s… solves somebody else’s problem. Why does it make me want to do this thing and attract other people to join me to do it and to offer them a beer instead of a water, if that’s what it takes? What is it that’s in there? 

This is Simon Sinek’s why. It’s the why that attaches you to the good for other people that’s why you’re doing it. Because otherwise in B2B, B2B is a little cold. And as a cold experience, we got to warm it up, or we can’t stay engaged with it personally. So the personal warmth comes from our dedication to mission. And that is what attracts other people to join us and do anything with us at all. And we can’t do very much alone.

And then the professional is… what’s interesting about the professional in B2B is almost all of it is, am I having a conversation with somebody from whom I will either learn something that is likely to help me help somebody else more than I’m helping them today, or I’m going to help them learn something that’s going to let them either move on and do whatever they’re going to do better, or even avail themselves of our services and product and to become a customer? And if we do those three things, I’m just mapping the one-to-one and onto, but I think they’re close enough. And I just made that up.

Corey Frank (05:36):

I think that correlates pretty well. And then it does beg the question, if we’re going to map those too. Jeff, from your experience, when you look at businesses that are B2B, with your B2C mindset about what you’re talking about, about introducing some skepticism and what we’re talking about with the culture code and building trust, and it’s safe and it’s vulnerable, it’s a team. When you look at B2B websites, when you get a B2B pitch, another vendor’s going to pitch ENTRE, a CRM system, a phone system. What do you think is missing from that initial pitch, that in your world, you just shake your head a little bit and say, “You poor SOB, you’re missing something fundamental that exists in our B2C world and our best practitioners of this craft get it, but you don’t?”

Jeff Lerner (06:29):

To me, it’s a culturalist… it’s a vacuum of mission/culture. So much business marketing is feature-driven and benefit-driven. And it’s a cliche. And every business owner, every CEO has read a book. They’ve read Good to Great, they’ve read Tribal Leadership, they’ve read Start With Why. And so they would say, “No, no. We’re about culture, and we’re about values, and we have Simon Sinek’s calls of Just Cause. And everybody at our paper mill is really aligned with the just cause of…” And it’s like, “No, everybody at the paper mill is not aligned with the just cause, they’re just trying not to get toxic chemicals on their clothes so they can go home and hug their kids without making them sick. That’s all they care about along with the paycheck.

But it’s [inaudible 00:07:15] For me, because I live and die off a culture, I am a cultural offering to a world, like you said, my ultimate product is hope, I would say it’s empowerment more than hope. I don’t really love hope, because hope is very externally focused. It’s an inwardly-focused hope, which I think is empowerment. We’re going to empower you with skills, we’re going to empower you with the community, we’re going to empower you with tools, we’re going to empower you with a different understanding of possibility out there. Fundamentally, you think, “Well, who am I competing with?” And I’m some new upstart, less than three years in the market that I… By the way, my entire budget to launch this company, all those video boosts was about 25 grand. So I built a hundred million dollar business with $25,000 startup capital and a whole bunch of chutzpah.

But you think about it, I’m out there… Who am I really competing with? I’m competing from a messaging and a market perspective. I consider myself to be creating a blue ocean, but in terms of how the market would compare me, it’d be like Tony Robbins, it’d be Grant Cardone, it’d be Russell Brunson, it’d be Tai Lopez. It might be, like you mentioned, [inaudible 00:08:19] I’d be flattered for the reference. So when that conversation against those luminaries, it’s not going to be about what I say, or even functionally what I offer. It’s going to be about how my world’s feels.

That’s the only way I win; is if my worlds feels… It’s like buying a house, everybody has to want to move into my house. You don’t move into a house because it’s got, “Oh, the chimney’s a little bit taller or the kitchen appliances are a little bit updated,” the three of us would move in because our wives would be like, “I just like the way that feels.” And we, “Okay, honey. That’s the one.”

Corey Frank (08:56):

So in a B2B world-

Jeff Lerner (08:59):

And B2B [crosstalk 00:09:00] sucks at creating feelings. They just suck. 

Corey Frank (09:02):

There you go. Chris, what would you say from your experience in the B2B world when you look at B2B sites. Here we are, consumers, we slide down our dinosaur at 5:01 And also we enter the world of B2C, what do you experience? What do you wish that some B2C organizations would adopt a little bit more that has been successful in the B2B go to market sales strategy, talking to strangers, et cetera?

Chris Beall (09:32):

I don’t know. I’m clueless about one-to-many conversations. I’m really am. I’m the worst. The B2B world is not particularly adept at feelings, I would say, where it is. It’s so unadept, it’s ridiculous. That’s our business, is making feelings happen through the medium, through a change of medium, which is the human voice. And the human voice engenders feelings in all cases and there’s no avoiding it. And it has a bit rate to pull it off. 20,000 bits a second, you got a shot, whereas you can’t get anywhere close to that in a website or an email or whatever it happens to be. What’s funny though, because I’ve listened on Clubhouse to folks starting B2C businesses. And I tell you what, I wish they would do is just… I don’t know how to put it exactly. Get a tiny bit more serious about matching up what you’re trying to do with a little bit of how it’s going to work.

It’s just funny. It’s like, I’m so full of my desire to be like something else that I saw succeeding. Somebody has a certain kind of business, I’ve been told that I can go do that. It’s like, “Okay, but do you know how business actually works? Do you know…” It’s really simple. The business equation is really simple. Jeff said it earlier, maybe it was before the show. He wanted to make a difference and to make a difference yet to make a profit, because if you don’t make a profit you’re not sustainable. That’s the business equation. You have to drive gross profit in order to be able to cover your overhead and have at least a $0 and maybe more than that leftover so that you can apply those to growth and you need some sort of a cash buffer, some asset-base so when it doesn’t work out perfectly with regard to timing, you’re not dead, because being dead means you can’t go after your mission either.

That awareness of just the basic biology of business, when I listen to people talking about starting B2C business, I think somebody should take five minutes and just demystify this simple equation. And it’s not about fancy models and all that. It’s, can it possibly work? Something investors think about that people who pitch to investors don’t think about, is this, the investor is asking you, if it works, will it be worthwhile? That’s their question. They’re not asking if it’ll work or not. Your question as the entrepreneur should be, “Under the range of circumstances I can control, will it work? Does the equation actually work?”

And I think more people should ask themselves that before they just go, “And everybody with a dog is kind of in.” And the thing that really bothers me and it bothers the Shark Tank guys more than probably anything, I think Mark Cuban really goes crazy when he hears it, is, “If I get 0.1% of this monster TAM, then blah, blah, blah.” It’s like, “Sorry, but you actually have to identify the true TAM and go dominate it. Jeff said, “His people. They speak your language and know the 3 P’s. Do you really care what people who are not your people, who are outside of that, or I don’t know, grants people or whatever, what they know about the 3Ps?

Jeff Lerner (12:52):

No. I-

Chris Beall (12:53):

Irrelevant.

Jeff Lerner (12:54):

No, I just care about wowing the people in my world so they’ll tell their friends, honestly.

Chris Beall (12:59):

There you go. It’s that clarity that when you’re clear you know that there’s limitations and the limitations or boundaries are good, not bad, because it gives you something to go make a difference in. Making a difference for everybody, sounds great, can’t be done. Making a difference for some people, whether it’s because they opt in or they have some characteristics or whatever, you got a shot. If that’s one person, we call that marriage. If it’s a handful, we call it friendship. If it’s in a thousand companies, we call it business and pure changing 130,000, 150,000, 200,000 lives at a time, what do we call it, Jeff?

Jeff Lerner (13:41):

Call it a movement. 

Chris Beall (13:43):

Yeah. What do you think about that? Jeff, am I barking up a completely branchless tree here?

Jeff Lerner (13:49):

No. No. You guys are just so… You’re intuitive landing at the same place I’m at after a few years of doing this. A few things. First of all, I just want to cover a couple things you said. First of all, the 3 P’s, I think they really do map. This is a new awareness. Physical is about helping somebody do a thing… If I were going to try to map with the benefit of what you already said, I would say physical is about helping somebody to do their job easier. I would say personal is about helping somebody do their job warmer, is maybe a better way to say it, more human. It’s about humanizing their job. So physical would be simplifying their job, personal would be humanizing their job, and then professional would be making their job either more profitable or more scalable, the actual business results. Anyway, that’s [crosstalk 00:14:41]

Chris Beall (14:41):

Jeff, we could write a book.

Jeff Lerner (14:43):

It is, yeah. [crosstalk 00:14:44]

Chris Beall (14:44):

The True Convergence. 

Jeff Lerner (14:45):

The Unified Theory of B2C and B2C. But anyways, and then the next thing, when you guys were talking about going from one-to-many… Well, actually, before I say that, Corey, when you asked the question, what is it you think that a lot of people in the B2C world could learn from B2B? The first word that came to mind was just, for me, when you asked the question was just be a professional. It’s okay to be personable, but not as a euphemism for being an amateur. Be a professional, learn to speak… And Chris, that’s what you were saying, is if you want to do business, you have to operate from sound business principles, and you have to speak a language that’s fundamentally grounded in and appealing to business, right?

Corey Frank (15:35):

Yes.

Jeff Lerner (15:36):

And there’s just so much amateurishness. And look, I ran a digital B2B agency for six years. I helped 11,000 small and medium-sized businesses with their marketing. And usually when you’re trying to help a business with their marketing, you realize very quickly you’ve brought a knife to a gunfight and you actually need to help them with their business. And so I did that 11,000 times in six years. I’m a pretty competent business conversationalist. And there’s no fabricating that. People try to masquerade. They’re like, “I got out of college last week. And I used to have a lemonade stand, let me tell you why you should hire me to consult your call floor or something.” And it’s like… 

Anyway, and then the thing about one-to-one, one-to-many and how you scale outward, I really felt like you hone in on something there. I think that’s one of the reasons the 3 P’s concept has been so sticky with people; is it’s not just 3 P’s existing laterally, it’s 3 P’s growing from the inside out. So when I draw it, I draw it as a concentric model; physical, personal, and then professional. And essentially, the processional is the outer ring. I say you don’t even have a right to try to get a professional result until you’re first taking great care of yourself physically, because you can’t take care of yourself… It’s like, if you want to get married, first buy a goldfish or something. 

And then the second wrong is you can’t take care of the people you love, the people that you supposedly care so much about, and you’re trying to leapfrog right to, “I want to make a million dollars by giving value to the market, but I’m a 60 pound overweight, hypertensive slob and I’m nearing a divorce.” Really? There’s no credibility in that. And so I teach first take care of one, then take care of a few, then you can talk to the market. And that maps, Corey, with what you were just saying. I think that’s one of the reasons people get it so sticky is because that’s my counter punch to them… that’s the us versus them in the market because the whole market has everybody focused on making all this money.

Corey Frank (17:29):

Sure. Although I would like to hear the podcast of the 60 pound overweight going through the divorce and all those other kinds of things. That would be interesting to at least listen to, to observe. Maybe they can mask the face of everybody that goes on there. A lot of them learning the anti-hero. With that regard, it sounds like it’s a journey, I can’t snap my fingers, but yet you were alluding to earlier, Jeff, that oftentimes people are not professional. In our world, in the world that Chris and I come from, in the B2B, we call it brewing it out, when I’m going to try to call you as a VP of sales and I’m going to get way too casual, way too quickly. I’m going to abuse all the nationality that Chris alluded to about tone and empathy and not be aware of how that helps build trust.

We had another good friend of ours in this podcast. He is a gentleman by the name of Oren Klaff, who wrote a book called Pitch Anything and Flip the Script. And he has a concept called squirrel theory. And squirrel theory is that when folks experienced new things, oftentimes a sales rep will try to [inaudible 00:18:40] that prospect over the head, “Hey, it’s brand new, it’s 10X and it’ll save your life and cure cancer and do loads of other things.” And Oren’s testament is more his feeling, is more that it’s like a squirrel discover something. You have a picnic basket under a tree, a squirrel about 20 feet away in a bush, peaks its head out a little bit, scurries a little closer and then goes back in the bush and then gets a little bit closer. And very cyclical finally gets the courage to look in the basket, hears a noise, and it goes back to the bush.

But eventually, the squirrel is feasting off your picnic basket, but it takes a couple of cycles of this novelty to not be so angst-driven [crosstalk 00:19:19] And I think that amateurs, folks like me, I’m an amateur in a lot of things, that if I was new to sales, if I were new to sales, the propensity for me to want to brow it out too quickly is masking my insecurity that I probably have that this is a new situation for me. So I’m going to have the nervous laughter, I’m going to probably talk about the weather, I’m going to try to talk about all these things that I think are engendering trust, right, Chris? But as you had said, in that sense, it is magnifying that fear factor, pushing me farther away from trust, it sounds like. Is that what you’re finding with a lot of folks in your world that try to leapfrog those different P’s to the professional?

Jeff Lerner (20:03):

Yeah, I think that was the question for me. So yes, I’ll say… The squirrel theory is exactly why I had to have so much content. Every new video in their feed was an opportunity for them to come to it just closer, but still dart back. And I just had to keep serving up more and more videos, more and more videos, more and more picnic baskets, more and more picnic baskets until eventually, they’re close enough. And they’re like, “Well, I haven’t been caught by the animal catcher yet. I haven’t been attacked by the leopard yet. So I’m just going to go down on this picnic basket.” And it gets a little safer each time. So yeah, I think that’s exactly right. And as far as professionalism and trust, if you want to… And this is true B2C and B2B. This is why that stuff you were saying is so ineffective.

If you want to build trust with somebody in a professional context, whether it’s consumer or a business, show them that you respect the value of their time. Talking about the weather is the opposite of that. And so for me, I had to focus my conversations on universal concepts that I know people struggle with. 

Listen, if you talk about not having time to go to the gym, if you talk about having a fight with your wife and going to sleep and not having enough time the next morning to actually talk it through and resolve it because you’re late for work, if you talk about your kid coming home crying because they struggle in school and their learning style isn’t a fit for the way schools teach, but you feeling fearful that if they don’t succeed in school, what hope do they have in this world because you’re not aware of an alternate path that I happen to know, those are conversations that just get right into people’s pains and that show them that I respect and I share their experience of the world. If you want to build rapport with somebody, talk about stuff like that, don’t talk about the weather, right?

Corey Frank (21:57):

Yeah, that’s great stuff. Your favorite sports team or [crosstalk 00:22:01] thank God it’s Monday, thank God it’s Friday.

Jeff Lerner (22:04):

The other thing I wanted to say, just so I don’t forget it, when you were talking about how businesses could be more human and more warm, use video, man. Just get your most, not even your most charismatic, just your most normalized, effective, healthy communicating person in your office to make a quick 90-second video articulating the single problem that your solution solved and have all your sales reps start sending that out. And you’ll, forget the term, you’ll 10X, the effectiveness of everything you’re doing from an outreach space. People just like watching videos now.

Chris Beall (22:46):

Especially if you send them right after a conversation, because they’ll actually open it.

Jeff Lerner (22:49):

Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Chris Beall (22:53):

That’s the ultimate 10X cheat, right? You talk to 10 times more people, send everyone a video, and you got open rate times 10X more conversations. That’s a hundred X right there, which is too scary and nobody wants to do.

Jeff Lerner (23:06):

Yeah. And most people’s businesses would crash and burn if they actually had a hundred times more customers. 

Chris Beall (23:12):

They will [crosstalk 00:23:13]

Jeff Lerner (23:12):

Let me share with you guys an interesting anecdote or experience that you guys can maybe process in your own worlds because, presumably, you guys are also trying to advise your clients on these types of concepts, where you’re trying to help them be more successful with your solutions. When I started this experiment and saying, “Hey…” I actually launched it in September, 2018. I walked out on a stage out at event with the equivalent of this; it was a selfie stick and my phone. And I said, “Ladies and gentlemen, I am starting over in my career. I sold my agency and with a very meager startup budget, I’m going to make a million dollars with these two things.” It wasn’t this, it was a little plastic selfie stick I bought at Best Buy and my phone. 

I said, “I’m going to make a million dollars with a few bucks and my phone and a selfie stick. And here’s how I’m going to do it.” And I explained the whole concept. I said, “I’m going to go out to market and strike up conversations, build trust, create rapport, get intelligence, get feedback from people, figure out what product they want. Eventually once I have a big enough trusting audience, I’ll launch a product, I’ll…” I did have that much in mind. Again, I didn’t know what the brand was going to be, I didn’t know what the product was going to be, I didn’t know all the details, but I told everyone what I was going to do. And I even sold a product at that event because I’m always a marketer. I can’t help myself. 

I said, “For $1,500, you can be a part of a private Facebook group with me where I will take you through this experience and we can all do it together, arm and arm and lockstep as a group. And I’ll always be the lead dog, I’ll be… I’ll figure out the settings on the YouTube videos, I’ll figure out the keyword optimization hacks, I’ll figure out the types of subject matter, I’ll figure out how to do the audience targeting analysis. And I’ll just share it with everyone in this group. So you’ll benefit from my obsessive workout thinking and trailblazing.” And I think at that event, 40 people signed up. 90 days later, guess how many people were still meeting their quote of producing one video a day, even while I was out there doing all the hard work?

Chris Beall (25:14):

Zero?

Jeff Lerner (25:16):

Chris, you’re a cynic. It was more than zero.

Chris Beall (25:18):

Okay. Well, what can I say? I just watch people try to do things every day. I asked myself, how many people have gone for a barefoot run every day since 1 January, 2007? And the number is pretty small.

Jeff Lerner (25:31):

Probably zero. My answer was actually overly… my response to you was overly skating because the answer was one.

Chris Beall (25:37):

Wow. Wow. 

Jeff Lerner (25:38):

So you were actually very close. Your cynicism was mostly [crosstalk 00:25:42]

Chris Beall (25:43):

For all we know, that one skipped a day somewhere when you were looking the other direction.

Corey Frank (25:48):

Well, were you surprised by that, Jeff, from when you originally issued the challenge, when you originally coalesced this group, did you assume it would be one in that amount of time?

Jeff Lerner (26:00):

Nothing surprises me anymore. I have completely enrolled in a philosophy in all aspects of my life of hoping for the best and planning for the worst with myself, with life, with environment, with other people, with the stock market, with investments, with error. And I’d rather be pleasantly surprised than consistently disappointed. I focus on having extremely high expectations of myself, extremely low expectations of everyone else and it seems to work out. It didn’t really surprise me. I’ve been doing some form of on and off marketing coaching. Even when I had my agency, I was having conversations indirectly through my team with thousands of business owners, advising them on how they can improve their internal processes. Because the number one response we would get when we were talking about marketing is people saying, “I can’t handle more business,” because a lot of these were owner-operator, solopreneur plumbers, roofers, landscape guys, whatever.

And we say, “Okay, you can’t handle more business. That’s fine. But could you handle more mine?” Even though that somebody is trying to be difficult. Nobody ever says, “No, I couldn’t handle more money.” You say, “Okay, great. Wouldn’t it be worth taking 10 minutes to discuss your business? There’s usually one weak link in your process where you don’t get back to people fast enough, you don’t know how to get the proposal out the right way, you don’t have the right marketing message, you don’t know how to close a deal. There’s usually one tweak we could make that could probably double your capacity for new business. Or maybe it’s on the fulfillment supply or distribution side, whatever. I’ve dealt with enough businesses. I can usually help. Let’s at least try to solve that problem because I’m sure if you went home to your wife and said, ‘Hey, honey, I told this guy on the phone today I couldn’t handle more money.’ She would be like, ‘Go back to work tomorrow, call the guy back.’ So why don’t we just entertain it?”

I had so many of these conversations and people just… they have not-invented-here syndrome. It’s so ridiculous because they go out into the market looking for a better idea to do things a better way because they’re frustrated with their own results, but then they reject things categorically because it wasn’t their idea. I don’t know if that’s… it’s probably ego. They don’t want to admit that somebody else knew what they did and about their business. It’s like somebody telling you how to raise your kid. So to answer your question, no, I was not surprised. And now who [crosstalk 00:28:13]

Chris Beall (28:13):

I wasn’t either because I thought it was zero. 

Corey Frank (28:17):

Yeah. 

Chris Beall (28:18):

Well, you know what? It’s not actually cynicism fundamentally though. Let’s face it. That group of people who signed up in that moment signed up because of their experience in that moment. Had they already been signed up inside themselves sufficiently that they could actually do this thing for 45 days, 90 days, 180 days, they would have already been doing something like that. So it’s hardly surprising that that’s the kind of person who signs up because they’re super attracted to something. It’s like, “Hey, finally, something that I can do every day with somebody.” It’s like, “Well…” 

That’s why I made the comment about I run barefoot every day. I’ve been doing it every day since 1 January, 2007. I’ve never missed a day any time. Why? Well, because I’m not going to miss a day. I’m just not. And I wouldn’t recommend it to somebody else because, I don’t know, it probably might be a bad idea or whatever, but people who can do things, who figured out how to do things that are not easy to do every day, or maybe they are, for me it’s easy, but they’re already doing them. They just are already doing them. You catch an adult who’s about to… in one’s truth. That would be saying, “Actually, you’re going to get the physical… Was their physical in shape to do something every day? Was their personal in shape to support doing something every day?”

For you, it’s like this great idea. I got the selfie stick, and I’m going to do this thing, and I’m going to make this multi-million dollar business right in front of God and everyone. But for them, they’re still going, without knowing it, “But my physical doesn’t even support that.” They haven’t even done that first step. So it’s like, “Yeah, we just found out that you had a great experience telling you that you got to start at the beginning, and this wasn’t the beginning.”

Corey Frank (30:09):

Chris, I’m curious on the running thing, but James to you, is that the book Atomic Habits, right? Another one by [crosstalk 00:30:17] 

Jeff Lerner (30:17):

Yeah, James Clear.

Corey Frank (30:18):

James Clear, exactly. That’s right. James Clear. You’re talking about the physical and the personal, professional. And again, I’m still hung up on that number of group down to one and I think in Atomic Habits he talks about this cue, and then routine, and then I think there’s a response, and then the reward. I think those are the four, right?

Jeff Lerner (30:39):

Right. 

Corey Frank (30:39):

Cue, craving, response and reward. And so that kind of loop, it builds your life into it. Is that the same type of principle, what you talk about in the physical and the personal, professional and that something’s got to be that cue for. Something’s got to be, they responded to your ad in the B2C world because, “Hey, I want a better life. I want an awesome life.” But maybe it’s like, “I don’t want to have that awesome of a life.” Maybe it’s like the, “I don’t feel enough pain to want to prompt it.” Where do you find that that drops off? Is it because I live a relatively life here in the Western world and nothing is as bad as… “My boss isn’t that bad. I don’t make that little of money. My wife isn’t that bad,” et cetera. And we start rationalizing, as the second strongest human urge sometimes that we have. Where do you see from your experience training all these people and with regards to that habit, or do we just fall short?

Jeff Lerner (31:41):

Yeah. You’re exactly right. Most people have built a fort of comfort with fort, is basically what comfort means. “In my fort, I’m comfortable.” And so what I really try to lean on, and I will say, the problem you’re alluding to got better in my favor in terms of the mission of what I’m trying to do, which is activate real, meaningful change in people since COVID. COVID shocked and scared enough people to go, “My illusion of comfort was… I’m a little more willing to admit how illusory it was. And so I’m a little more willing to respond on the basis that it might not be permanent.” But pre-COVID and soon enough, we’ll regress to the mean and people will be delusionally secure again.

What I really try to do is create an ideology and a language and a shared understanding, a belief system about the world. And part of the way you do that is you agitate it and you develop it internally with your language. And part of the way you do it is you just attract people from the get-go that already believe what you believe, which is… And there’s a lot of people in this world, and certainly in this country, that are frustrated by the lowest common denominator thinking, the idea that meritocracy is unfair, that every kid should get the same grade, every kid should get a participation trophy.

Jeff Lerner (34:39):

There’s a lot of pent up frustration in this world around that stuff. And so, all I have to do is tap into it and say, “Listen, if you want to have an awesome life, you have to be committed to excellence. If you want to be committed to excellence, you have to be excellent. If you want to be excellent, you have to be as unlike the average as possible because there’s a little camp up there on top of the mountain where all the excellent people hanging out, and there’s this giant Valley at the bottom of the mountain that all the shit rolls downhill to that’s called Average Camp. And all I’m inviting you to do is take the hard walk up the hill into the Excellent Camp where there’s 700 of us that have the great life, but it’s an open border. It’s not discriminatory. Anyone can, but obviously everyone won’t because most people will choose to be average. 

I have that conversation so much in my world that you’re either going to be repelled by the conversation because you think what a tyrannical jerk I am, or you’re going to love the conversation, which means you are signing up to believe what I believe, which means it’s now easy to convict you if you’re not doing the work. Because I’m inviting you to self-select to excellence, so all the typical average behavior now becomes a contradiction and you guys know the Commitment and Consistency principle from Robert Cialdini. If I’m having people take micro-commitments, and I don’t just think about micro-commitments as, “I bought a $5 product. Now I’ll buy a $50 product. Now I’ll sign up for a coaching call. Now I’ll buy a $500 an hour product. Now I’ll sign up for an annual bundle for 20 grand,” or whatever the ascension stack is.

But I think of micro-commitments as, “I posted a picture in Facebook holding a piece of paper on which I wrote my 90 days 3 P’s goals. And I took a picture smiling on Facebook, and now I’m committed. I’m a little more committed to excellence and one foot out of the average camp.” And I walk people through those type of micro commitments. I have a process… All my processes that are the indoctrination processes in my world, they’re very personal growth-focused. I have something called the ENTRE Blueprint that walks them through very basic steps, mostly personal development. I have something called the Awesome Life Challenge. It’s things like developing your success character and standing in a mirror and acting like a cartoon defined version of yourself where your best attributes are enhanced.

Just like cartoon characters, they enhance certain characteristics and you minimize your weakest attributes. And I have them do these exercise and then post about the exercises in the groups. And I have them go through something called an implementation bootcamp, which is a two-week training that doesn’t teach you anything other than how to be a better implementer, regardless of what you’re implementing. It’s like all the basic training modality. And once I’ve done that, people are like, “Hey, we’re the few, the proud, the entrepreneurs. And we’re excellent.” And I don’t really have to fight those battles anymore. But the reason it works for me is because I’ve invested the time and I take the time and I’ve created those resources. There’s no shortcut.

Chris Beall (37:41):

You just said, I think, Jeff, the big reason most people don’t choose excellence, and that is excellence is a form of exile from the community in which they grew up, the community in which they’re comfortable, and the community in which they can have the primary conversation that people have all day, every day, which is to achieve rapport by complaining. This is the number one source of words coming out of people’s mouths coming on to social media. All of the words that if you add them all up and you say, “Is this a word that’s within a complaint about something or not?” You’ll get 99-1. 99, it’s out of every 100, are within a complaint about something.

Jeff Lerner (38:30):

So true.

Chris Beall (38:31):

And it’s a lonely idea, a scary and lonely idea because we fear exile way, way worse than death. Exile is the worst punishment throughout all of human time. It has been the way that we punish those that have transgressed the most, is we exile them. If we like them a little better, we kill them. But if we really, really think they’re bad, we exile them. And choosing self exile from your community of complainers is itself such a lonely prospect that the idea of going part way up that mountain and now you have nobody, you’re nowhere. That truly is no man’s land. There’s no one living in a hut one halfway up Mount Excellence. And so it’s scary. And I think you’ve hit the reason. And this is true. And this isn’t a B2B or B2C thing. This is just when you make a company, for instance, one of the things I do when I’m asking people whether they want to join us, I make it clear it’s probably a bad idea for them to join a company and work with me.

And the reason is, I say, “Look, first, you don’t get the comfort of having somebody to report to and getting to blame that person for your woes. We both report to the truth. And the truth is a hard task master.” Every once in a while, we don’t have enough information. We don’t have enough time. Somebody has got to guess, “That’s my job. I’m the [guesser 00:39:57] guest, sir.” It’s a corrupt system. I also declare we’re going to guess. You’re signing up for that. Sorry, the math happens to reach a singularity point of the single guesser, but everything else, we’re coming to work naked every day. We’re being enthusiastically wrong every day. We don’t have a place to go hide from each other because there is no each other; there’s the truth. We’re trying to handle the truth. 

And that is a lonely place to go. And I say to folks, “I recommend you don’t do it because it’s going to separate you a little bit from the world where you get to go to work and you bitch.” Because that’s the standard, you go to work and the comfort of the job is that you get to complain about the job, the boss and the customers. That’s comforting. That’s the comfort, Jeff.

Jeff Lerner (40:41):

It is. I’ll tell you how I counter that. Again, you have to… Us versus them is the most powerful concept in marketing, at least from my experience. And the way I combat that is I really do have to somewhat demonize the average, perhaps unfairly. But you have to. Change is always an overcorrection or else nothing changes. I remember my mom telling me, when I was a little kid, somebody at school used the term feminazis or something. A militant feminist is a feminazi. And I was like, “Mom, what’s a feminazi? She’s like, “A feminazi is a very activist feminist. But the thing you have to understand, Jeffrey,” because I was eight when I asked the question, she’s like, “somebody has to be radical and extreme just to get enough light shined on an issue for the mean to shift a little bit towards the extreme. You have to have Malcolm X so that Martin Luther King Jr. could win,” is what she was saying. And I was like, “That’s true because otherwise we’re just creatures of inertia and nothing changes.” 

So the way I have to do it is I really vilify the common environment that you’re describing, this complainer society. What I do is I hearken back our tribal origins and I say, “Historically, what I’m asking you to do would have been terrifying you because it would make you less like the people around you, which creates an existential threat you’ll be cast out and eaten by a bear. But the world we live in now ask yourself, ‘Who is my tribe?'” And you’ve given me some new language here to have this conversation with because every tribe in the modern world is already basically a tribe of exiles.

How many of your friends that you’re sitting around complaining with are working in the family business? How many of them even grew up in the town that they’re working in? How many of you actually live together in the same neighborhood? How many of you, his kids actually go to school together? All the tribal connective tissue has been completely scrapped and reworked in modern society. So you’re clinging to a tribal concept that already doesn’t apply. So get over the idea of needing to belong in the tribe and realizing you’re never going to live in the nice hut in the tribe until you go out of the tribe, prove yourself in battle like the prodigal tribesmen who goes out and then comes back the returning neuro so you can rule the damn tribe. That’s it. Right?

Chris Beall (43:13):

That was so flipping good that I almost used an adjective. But this is a family show because Corey’s got lots of love [crosstalk 00:43:25]

Jeff Lerner (43:24):

I used the sh word, and I apologize for that guys.

Chris Beall (43:28):

Did you really? I was in a conversation with a very senior executive at a big, big payroll services company and the number of words like that she used, it made me feel pretty good. I felt like I belonged. It was excellent.

Corey Frank (43:44):

Isn’t that a more… It’d be interesting. Just talk about that just for a second, is I got bro it out over here on the amateur scale. And then we’ve all been part of B2B conversations where that happens. And again, listen, hey, we’re in a real world, we’re not daisies or immune to power boards in the world here and shocked by subtle things like that. But it is a technique, is it not? It is a discomfort. Oftentimes where people overtly use language like that in business, it masks an insecurity, it masks something. What do you say?

Chris Beall (44:25):

Not in this case. But yes, I think it often does in this specific case [crosstalk 00:44:28] In this case, what…

Corey Frank (44:30):

The team was good and [crosstalk 00:44:30]

Chris Beall (44:30):

No, it wasn’t pain at all. It was actually the opposite. It was a 20-minute meeting that turned into a deep exploration of the market dominance opportunity for a multi-billion dollar company. And we hit on the very thing that could be done. This is a first meeting, a 20-minute discovery meeting. And it was an hour and 27 minutes into it where all of the covers came off. All of the buckets were brought out, we looked at all of this, some of this or some of this, and then it was just, we were on the same team and just talking about how to solve a big problem.

Corey Frank (45:07):

Well, you hit raw nerve by this epiphany of what I’ve have been missing.

Chris Beall (45:12):

Exactly. It’s one of these things that… This is why AI can’t possibly work with language, because we can barely do it ourselves unless we were there. It’s so subtle how language works with folks. Jeff, you talked about vocabulary. I used to be a relatively well-known in certain circles large-Scale software systems developer. I was an architect. I was the guy you brought in when… if the guys had been working or the gals have been working for four years and the thing isn’t going to deliver, and somebody’s got to fix it and we have four weeks and we’re going to make it again from scratch. That was what I did for a living.

And the first thing that I would always do is get the team together and say, “We’re going to stay in this room until we agree as to the precise definition, in three different ways of defining it, of every single word that we’re going to use from now, until this product is built. Let’s start putting words on the board and let’s decide what they mean.” And it normally takes three or four days. And it’s really, really just uncomfortable for people because they’re going, “Why aren’t we writing code? Why aren’t we writing code?” And it’s because until we speak the same language, we don’t have a chance of writing a coherent system.

And once we speak the same language excellently with precision, with deep understanding of what these words mean, and specifically what they don’t mean, what they’re anti-meaning is, how this isn’t one of those, as soon as we understand that, it’s the easiest thing in the world to write massive bug-free systems. And I think it’s the same thing when you’re writing, so to speak, writing or architecting a system for life. You’ve got to get to where the words have specific, precise, shared, resonant meanings, or it’s very dangerous to talk… It’s dangerous enough to talk in person like this. It’s really dangerous to talk in writing when there’s no one there to correct you on the spot when you make an emotional error with the word, and those are the big errors. 

Jeff, you said that you had [crosstalk 00:47:14] for a while, and now a while is over. Look, I am going to work on one of my P’s immediately. My barefoot running has been short today and I’m going to go make it six miles or seven miles longer. So that one is in the bag. I simply love your concentric foundations and why they are like they are. I tell you when young entrepreneurs ask me a question all the time, which is, “What’s the one thing I need to do in order to be successful?” 

And I say, “Take great care of your body because when your body starts to not quite support, just tiny bit, or you’re not getting why it’s not supporting the next level of activity, which is your personal, but when your body won’t do it anymore, you won’t notice it. All you’ll do is fail.” And entrepreneurship begs you not to take good care of your body. It just begs you to because it says, “There’s always one more thing I can do at the keyboard. There’s always one more thing I can do sitting down.”

So I’m going to go for a trot with huge, huge, thanks to you. I heard that a guy had an awesome life kind of company, but you’re bringing awesome life to Market Dominance Guys today. This is simply an amazing experience. Thank you. 

Jeff Lerner (48:34):

I’m so glad we got to do it, guys. While we were talking, I texted two different people to move meetings out because I enjoyed this conversation so much I didn’t want to cut it short. So I really appreciate you guys. 

Corey Frank (48:45):

Well, we got to have [Yon 00:48:46] in… In fact, we should send an invite immediately after this, Chris, but one year from today, because I have a feeling as more and more quarters and months in the next years come by, Jeff’s going to be a tougher and tougher get, and Tony Robin’s going to be opening up for Jeff Lerner, I think, here. Because the principals are so timeless and clearly for us to go this long on a Market Dominance episode is pretty unusual too. So we certainly appreciate all this. I got three pages of notes here. So I always live vicariously through Chris and my guests here and adopt all this new content and spend it all on myself and the teams here. So we appreciate that certainly. With that, this has been another episode of the Market Dominance guys with Corey Frank and Chris Beall. Until next time.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Up to now, our Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, have used this podcast as a platform addressing the topic of how to dominate B2B markets. But today, the guys are interviewing Jeff Lerner, founder, and CEO of Entre Institute, about the process he employs to dominate a B2C market. By placing daily video messages on social media about himself, his life, and his goal to help people improve their lives, Jeff proves to his prospects that he is a person they can identify with and, eventually, a person they can trust. It’s not as quick as a cold call: Jeff says it takes about six months of exposure to his messages before skepticism is diminished in his prospects’ minds and they trust him enough to be open to what his company offers.

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Chris compares the arc of Jeff’s social media campaign with that of a salesperson who makes cold calls, including the ambush of catching a prospect unaware with an unscheduled call  — which is very much like what Jeff does when his videos pop up on social media, essentially ambushing his potential buyers and creating instant mistrust. Jeff explains that the more complex the problem is that you’re trying to solve for your prospects, the more mistrust there is for you to overcome. And, as he says, “You don’t build trust with knowledge or technical competence. You build it emotionally, empathetically.” Listen in while Chris, Corey, and Jeff discover more similarities between dominating business and consumer markets in this Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “B2B or B2C: It’s All About Gaining Trust.”

About Our Guest

Jeff Lerner is CEO and founder of Entre Institute, which provides business training, inspiration, and personal support through videos, messaging, online workshops, and one-on-one interaction for entrepreneurs who want to create online businesses and awesome lives. 

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This is the full transcript for this episode:

https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/jsn8u2/mdg-20210422-lerner-2-time-50-15.mp3

 

Chris Beall (02:18):

All right, everybody. We got to overcome the shock of it being me, Chris Beall on Market Dominance Guys. I’m CEO of ConnectAndSell. I’m here with Jeff Lerner, who is the founder CEO of Entre Learning Systems. Broke jazz musicians done $250 million in sales. I don’t know, I can’t keep track and things go up into the [inaudible 00:02:42] all you can do is just kind of whip your head up and see if you can keep your eyes going. Jeff, welcome to the show.

Jeff Lerner (02:46):

Thanks Chris. Excited to be here. We can parse those numbers, but I’m grateful for the intro for sure.

Chris Beall (02:52):

Well, I tell you what, every once in a while I tell people about a deal I did back in the day and I know it was a hundred and twenty million, but when other people tell the story, it becomes 150, 180. Sometimes you just got to go with it. Just got to go with it.

Jeff Lerner (03:06):

I just have to say exits, run rates. They’re basically all fishing stories.

Chris Beall (03:11):

Yeah. Oh God. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I caught a fish that was this big. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, Jeff was kind enough to have me on his podcast and it was spectacular. It was a ton of fun. We kept finding out all these bizarre things that we had in common. It got weirder and weirder and weirder in a good way. I mean, it really did. After a while, we’re like, “Really? Not one more thing? You got to be kidding me.” Right? So he’s done me now, a double kindness coming on and let’s let Corey in the room here. Here comes Corey Frank. Corey Frank is in the room. He’s looking good. He’s he’s running a real business to. Corey, we’re already on. We’re already running. So I want to introduce you to Jeff Lerner.

Corey Frank (03:59):

Jeff, how are you?

Jeff Lerner (04:00):

Hey Corey. Nice to meet you, man. How are you?

Corey Frank (04:02):

Fantastic. Last day of the month. Last day of the quarter. Always good.

Jeff Lerner (04:05):

Yes, that’s right. Yeah. We’re all trying to break records, right?

Corey Frank (04:09):

Indeed.

Chris Beall (04:10):

So Jeff founded and runs Entre education services? I can never remember things.

Jeff Lerner (04:17):

Entre Institute.

Chris Beall (04:18):

Entre Institute. I love it. Entre Institute. And Corey runs something called Youngblood. I can’t even say it because when I get to the word blood, I realize everybody’s listening. Youngblood Works and it’s one of those names you have to parse it and go, is it that the Youngblood Works or that the Youngblood Works or whatever, but he is bringing a whole new way of making new business happen for companies, especially in cybersecurity, but for others. And it’s pretty magical stuff. So Corey is, I believe in Phoenix right now it’s our Scottsdale. It looks familiar.

Corey Frank (04:54):

We have another store’s Location in Phoenix, Arizona. That’s correct.

Chris Beall (04:57):

An undisclosed location.

Corey Frank (04:58):

[inaudible 00:04:58].

Chris Beall (05:00):

So what we’re going to talk about today is Corey, believe it or not, we always talk about B2B. And we talk about how to dominate B2B markets by using a conversation first approach. And I talk to people about this regularly, as do you. And usually we get this raised eyebrow, like what do you mean conversation first approach? And then when we talk about building trust through conversations and harvesting the trust as you go to market in order to create massive competitive advantage and lower the friction and cost of acquiring customers until finally you’re dominating that market.

Chris Beall (05:31):

When we talk about that, people think that’s even weirder because they think you’ve got to talk value in order to get trust. But we believe that you should offer value and in a cold call, that value is, “I’ll go away, if you let me say 27 seconds worth of stuff.” In order to instantly get trust and then go from trust toward curiosity and from curiosity, ultimately to the opportunity to offer somebody value. We have here with us today somebody, in the form of Jeff, who’s done this and B2C. You don’t know anything about B2C, right?

Corey Frank (06:05):

I’ve purchased something on the internet in my past, at least once. Yes. That’s about it.

Chris Beall (06:10):

Okay. All right. All right. Well I know-

Corey Frank (06:12):

[inaudible 00:06:12].

Chris Beall (06:15):

I don’t know a great deal about it either. If you asked me to run a B2C business, I would figure out a second letter, other than C. I’d run B to F or B to Q or something like that because I’m a clueless consumer. And I watched Jeff as we were getting ready for the show, go in and remake the credentials for an e-commerce site so somebody who’s helping him with it could do her job. And I would just look at it like a cow looks at an oncoming train. So I got an opening question for Jeff and then Corey, we’re going to let you take it away because this is about as much prep as you ever get.

Chris Beall (06:51):

So Jeff just high level you told me that you use conversation first approach to dominate a B2C market. I would contend that’s impossible because how could you get all the conversations and wouldn’t you go broke in the meantime and all that. So first of all, did that idea come to you? Like I’m going to do it this way or I’m so brilliant. I figured out this way to do it, or was it something that you started doing and then went, “Holy moly, this actually is the right way to do it.” Or what? How’d you get going with this incorrect model?

Jeff Lerner (07:25):

It was kind of a combination of all three options. So I’ll say D all of the above, but I have to focus on the fact that there was an element of presupposition that this approach would work, how it would work, how it would unfold, what it would even end up working for that kind of evolved through the process and through the conversations and through the intelligence and feedback gathering of the conversations. So for example, when it started, it wasn’t Entre Institute, it was just Jeff knowing that he knew some stuff. And then at some point he wanted to figure out how to A, get what he knew to a large number of people. And obviously to do that in any sustainable way, it means to build a for-profit business out of it so that it can keep going and keep reaching more people.

Jeff Lerner (08:14):

So it started as just like, “Hey, I know some things that a lot of people could benefit from, and I want to scale the message and monetize the message so that I can keep scaling the message over time.” And I know that the best way to start that is just start talking. And start sharing and start giving value. Obviously, when you’re talking conversations B2C on mass, it’s different than B2B conversations where you think of having a dialogue with a purchasing manager at a big logistics company, or I guess logistics companies don’t do purchasing so that was a bad example, but you know what I mean. A LinkedIn chat. For me, a conversation was Facebook video, comment thread, 600 comments, me taking the time to respond to every comment that was worth responding to, and maybe having 35 conversations in a feed where everybody can see it.

Jeff Lerner (09:05):

So indirectly, it becomes a conversation with a hundred thousand people that have all seen the video by proxy of the 35 people in the comments. So I did that. Basically, I knew that I knew how to go build real businesses on the internet. I’d been doing it at that time for 10 years. And I have a good story which helps drive conversations. I had gone from 10 years prior to that 2008, I was a broke out of work, jazz musician, half a million dollars in debt from a couple sales restaurant businesses that we’re all on borrowed money that they never should have given me the loan in the first place, except it was 2006 and the banks were insane. They’d loan, a 27 year old kid, 400 grand to hang himself with, but I had paid off all that debt. I’d gone online in 2008. I paid off all that debt.

Jeff Lerner (09:54):

At that point, I had generated close to about 50 million bucks just with total online businesses, working from home on a laptop or whatever. And they were all businesses you can start with relatively low startup capital. And I’m like, “I know that this stuff would change most people’s lives.” Most people are stuck in a job. They toil. They don’t get what they love. They don’t love what they get. What if everybody knew what I knew? So I started putting information out to market about the business side of it, but also I didn’t want to get caught up in the perception of being another one of these talking head, internet business, make money online, scammy guru, people that have rented Lamborghini’s and Airbnb mansions that they stay in for three days while they shoot their ad video. And I didn’t want to be one of those guys.

Jeff Lerner (10:41):

So I really wanted to focus on a more holistic conversation and I’m married. I’m a dad. I coach kids basketball team. My favorite thing in the world is just to play with my kids. And I work out a lot, I’m really into health and fitness. I go to a lot of therapies. So I’m real into communication dynamics and healthy relationships. And I wanted to fold all of that into a conversation about the new digital economy and these business models and these business tools that are available to everyone, where you can learn how to build a funnel, create a decent offer, find a target audience, pair those three things together, throw some money at it, grow your brand and your message inside of it.

Jeff Lerner (11:23):

If you have something to say, and you have value to offer, you can build a hell of a business. That model is out there. There’s 7.7 billion people in the world. And I think four billion of them have internet access. And that model is available to all four billion of those. And yet 96% of people self report dissatisfaction in their job. 86% of people report dissatisfaction in their lives. And I’m like, “Well, screw the doctors. I’m the one with the prescription. They can fix all these problems.” So I just started giving the value. Here’s how I built my online business. Here’s how having an online business allows me to go to therapy at two o’clock in the afternoon with my wife so we can learn to communicate better because I don’t have to ask for time off or be in trouble because I left work. And here’s how my online business allows me to pay for healthy prepared meals. Facilitates a whole life, a whole quality of life, not just a big fat bank account.

Jeff Lerner (12:13):

And that’s the conversation that I struck up on the internet. And I was just putting out video after video, after video saying, “Hey, my name’s Jeff Lerner. You can look me up online. Here’s a picture of my house. I’m a real guy. I’m not trying to sell you anything. I just truly believe that what I know can change the world and it can change your world. Let me know if you have any questions.” And over the course of the year, I put out between Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube, I put out probably close to a thousand videos or re edited videos for the different platforms and stuff. Probably about three or 400 source videos of just me giving away free value. After a year of doing that, I had thousands of conversations. I had millions of people engage with my content, a re-targetable audience on Facebook of two million people that were like, “Man, I like this Jeff guy. He’s really trying to help. He’s not trying to sell me anything.”

Speaker 5 (13:36):

Before ConnectAndSell, we had to deal with everything that everybody else has to deal with. Cold calls, gatekeepers, automated phone trees, dial by name directories. So using ConnectAndSell, instead of having two conversations an hour, we’re having 10 conversations an hour, everybody’s making money. So with that, we sell our lives cut easier, helped us increase our production by 70% because I don’t have to do all this manual work.

Speaker 6 (14:04):

Now my reps can actually speak to more real conversations, more real customer calls and more real money. Yeah, we made money. We made seven figures off of that test drive. A sales rep, uploads the list, presses play they’re connected to the customer. It is completely easy, effortless with no dialing. Do yourself a favor call ConnectAndSell and watch the magic happen.

Announcer (14:36):

And we’re back with Corey and Chris.

Jeff Lerner (14:38):

They’re like, “Hey, do you have a course I can by.” Or like, “Hey, is there any way I can give you money to get more from you?” And it’s like-

Corey Frank (14:48):

How long-

Jeff Lerner (14:48):

Well, speak of the devil. Yeah? Go ahead.

Corey Frank (14:48):

How long does that process take do you see to build that trust and ameliorate that fear?

Jeff Lerner (14:58):

It took me-

Corey Frank (14:59):

Because in the B2B world, we know what it is, but in your B2C experience, how long does that take?

Jeff Lerner (15:03):

It took me six months I would say of showing up every day to go from people ignoring me to people being annoyed by me, to people being intrigued by me, to people listening, but skeptical of me and eventually people listening to me and wanting it to be true. And then eventually winning them over that I’m not going to go away and I’m too transparent to be made up. So now you can finally trust and that was six steps I just gave you it was probably about one per month. I spent a month in obscurity and then the next month I just spent annoying people, but I kept going.

Corey Frank (15:46):

So once you capture that name or that prospect or that ICP, that you identify, you build a relationship, whatever your cadence is, weekly or monthly in this case.

Jeff Lerner (16:00):

Daily. Daily was mine.

Corey Frank (16:01):

Daily, daily. And a lot of it is growing value up front to go through those six steps of annoyance and acceptance and trust.

Jeff Lerner (16:11):

And it’s got to be daily. I think probably one of the differences between B2C is B2C could also be called business the chaos or business declutter or business to crowd. If you want to stand out in the crowd, you’re going to have a high quantity of content for the average person that you’re trying to reach to see you the seven times in their Facebook feed, that it takes to create a memorable imprint there’s probably a hundred million impressions that have gone through that feed that you have to pop up into. It just takes a lot more quantity. I used to do inbound marketing for B2B clients when I had an agency. And that was much more quality over quantity. I think with B2C I don’t want to say quantity over quality, but I would say quality without quantity is almost useless.

Corey Frank (16:59):

Have you discovered any data or the biophysiology of why it takes that long on that process? Obviously some of them when you’re trying to cast a wide net and I absolutely want a better life. Absolutely, I want to be better looking and thinner and more in shape and have a relationship and financial independence. So you may get folks where just the intersectionality of pay opportunity and preparedness like you got me at the right time. My boss just pissed on me. My cat pissed on everything, but for a person who’s at rest, who you need to stimulate in a direction of moving toward your ultimate call to action, is it because it’s just a by-product of so much noise in the universe now? And so many folks adopting this, but from a data perspective, why should it take so long on that B2C process?

Jeff Lerner (17:53):

It’s a function of a few things. One, it is just the pure volume of content and messaging. I mean, I forget the statistics, but I think people are exposed four million marketing messages a day now something like completely mind blowing. And so for you to claim any tiny, memorable fraction of those total messages, those total impressions, you just got to show up a lot. Plus skepticism is at an all time high. And this goes with the high volume of marketing messages, the barrier to entry to getting your message out to someone online. And I would create one of these videos and this is an important part of the process to understand.

Jeff Lerner (18:32):

I wouldn’t just post it on my profile or even just post it on my page because in late 2018, when I was doing this, the organic reach of Facebook page content had already started to fall dramatically. Facebook isn’t going to do you any favors just distributing your business related content for free. So I would throw anywhere from 25 to maybe a hundred, occasionally 200 if I felt really confident in the video, dollars’ worth of what they call a boost on each of these videos so that I could target a segment of the cold market to make sure they saw my videos. And so this was further data. Let’s say I shot four videos that were roughly on the same subject or even the same video. I could boost it four different times. I could say target Tony Robbins audience, target Gary Vaynerchuks audience, target men over 45, target women under 35, whatever combination of demographics and interests I wanted to target I could, that was part of the intelligence gathering.

Jeff Lerner (19:28):

But it’s just hard and skepticisms at all time highs so you got to win them over. And a lot of it is just the confidence. If you think about statistics, the more time something occurs, the more confidence you place in it as not just an anomaly. And there’s kind of a similar effect online where not just the more times they see you, but the more different messages they see from you, the more backgrounds they see you in, the more locations they see you in, the more other people they see you with. Here’s a video with me and my daughter. Here’s a video of me and my wife out driving in the car. Here’s me at the gym. It builds this case of, “Okay, this must be real.” Nobody has the budget to fabricate an entire life with all these different facets.

Corey Frank (20:14):

Well, there’s a great book, Culture Code by Daniel Coyle.

Jeff Lerner (20:17):

I just bought it. I haven’t read it, but I just bought it.

Corey Frank (20:19):

It’s phenomenal. And I think certainly talking with you, I think you’d agree Chris with Jeff is that there’s certain folks who are just unconscious competence who probably do a lot of these things by their nature, by their intuitiveness, by their kind of at rest net we’ll say, I think you probably fit into that. But Coyle talks about what are the imprints of a great organization, a great team, it could be a great family, marriage, et cetera. And you identified a couple of them probably. And as you said you didn’t read the book yet, right? Number one is it’s usually this concept of building safety. Can you build safety that it’s safe to talk to me? And Chris we’ll talk about this a little bit when we get your impression of the intro and how we ameliorate fear but also throw enough intrigue and humor and curiosity intention in there because they got to make a tough decision, but building safety and bearing vulnerability, which snuffs out the skepticism.

Corey Frank (21:16):

The more vulnerable and open I am, “Hey, listen, I’m just a real guy, flesh and blood looking at, I don’t have a six pack, but I’m getting there.” My life’s not perfect, but it’s getting there. And then the third is establishing purpose, a mission, a drive, versus a lot of folks being in this, maybe home of complacency in their life, drifting from port to port, as Uncle Zig would say like a life without a rudder and you just hope that you drift into a port of prosperity.

Corey Frank (21:42):

So with that, and again, probably because you’ve had so many repetitions doing this in a B2C world different than Chris and I come from where we don’t have as big of as you do, [inaudible 00:21:55] certainly with many of the clients that Chris and I deal with, we have [inaudible 00:22:00] in the hundreds or thousands, not in the millions or so. But isn’t that fascinating, Chris, with that there are some similarities with Jeff is doing even unconsciously to kind of build these great teams. But in your case, you are the brand and they’re buying you and what you’re about. What do you think about that Chris what Jeff has shared with us?

Chris Beall (22:23):

Well, it’s interesting. I mean, Jeff, what you described that six step process is oddly analogous to a process that takes about 30, 40 seconds that we teach people to do on a cold call. You had to do it over six months because of the nature of the beast, because you’re cold calls so to speak is to your whole audience. It’s not to one person or another person, another person you’re cold calling your entire audience and you need to get them-

Jeff Lerner (22:51):

I’m interrupting them as bad as any vocal, for sure.

Chris Beall (22:54):

Exactly. And it’s interesting that interrupt thing, you’re really ambushing, and I’ll even go beyond that. They didn’t agree in advance that they were going to see your video pop-up or whatever, right? So there’s this ambush and the ambush psychology the way you played it forward is like a six month long cold call and it makes sense it would be six months long because you’re doing it with millions of people whereas when we teach cold calling, we go, “Okay, I’ll provide you with the ambush capabilities. Your Facebook is our connect and sell.” So on Facebook, you get something to jump up in front of somebody. Your boost is like somebody paying us in order to push a button and talk to somebody, that’s their boost. And then your opening move that you’re making ends up being inevitable annoyance first, you’re just showing up and then being ignored.

Chris Beall (23:51):

And then annoyance happens, right? Why are they annoyed? Well, they’re kind of afraid of you because they think you’re going to sell them something. So it’s annoyance that a guy who I’m afraid of he’s going to sell me something. I can see him but is he real, he could be fake. He’s a visible stranger, but he might as well be invisible because I am not sure he ain’t fake. It could be something else. And so, this is really a shock to me. You’re taking them down a path. So we take folks down this journey, when you ambush somebody, you immediately establish trust because they start in a place of fear. So the way you establish trust is basically you own up to not just annoying them, but scaring them.

Chris Beall (24:35):

I know I’m an interruption. Can I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called? And that’s where I’m going to solve a problem that you have. And you’re solving a problem they have, which is a problem of hope. Their problem is 98% down to 87% of too whatever it is, depending on how you look at it. I’ve kind of given up, but they don’t want to give up. They don’t want to not like their job. They don’t want to not like their life. They want hope. So you’re offering them hope. And from that, I think they’re going to get some trust. We’re offering them a way out of their current trap. Their current trap is I just ambushed you and you want me to go away and I’m going to offer you certainty that I’ll go away.

Chris Beall (25:21):

That’s my offer. I will go away. Certainly. And I’ll tell you how certain. I’ll go away in 27 seconds. All you have to do is let me tell you why I called. And then I’m gone. And by going so early to trust in your case two months and our case seven seconds, and it probably [inaudible 00:25:41]. Here’s a guess. Corey, if you were to take just him divided by your Tam or my Tam and count, and then multiply it by seven seconds, I think you get two months.

Jeff Lerner (25:55):

It’s probably right.

Chris Beall (25:59):

I’m killing myself here. This is the unified field theory of business. It just happened.

Jeff Lerner (26:06):

Yeah. The other nuance I want to add to what you said I think it’s important for everyone to understand, because I think it would apply B2B or B2C is the more complex the problem is that you’re trying to solve the more mistrust there is for you to overcome, which means the longer the opening salvo to build it needs to take. And here’s what I mean. If you’re calling a business and their problem is they have dirty water in the holding tank because they have a [inaudible 00:26:42] installed that’s made of the wrong material. You can call. And in like three seconds, you can build trust by saying, “Hey, I heard you have dirty water in your tank. Let me guess you have one of those porous silicone netting wraps. And I’m here to tell you about the non porous silicone netting wrap that’ll eliminate dirt in your groundwater.”

Jeff Lerner (27:03):

Well, boom, you got them because it was such a specific problem with such a specific solution. For me, I’m going out to millions of people saying, “So you’re not totally stoked about your life.” Could be your marriage, could be your health, could be your job, could be your money, turned out it could have been COVID, could be your boss is an asshole, it’s such a vague and multifaceted problem that it would take me a month to even demonstrate that I have enough multi-dimensional competence to even speak to them and potentially relate to whatever their particular subset of all those issues actually is. And half the time the reason people think they’re not happy, isn’t even why they’re really unhappy. You see what I mean? It’s just a way completely different obstacles set to overcome.

Jeff Lerner (27:53):

And you nailed it though. This is, I think goes to a lot of sales mistakes. You don’t build trust with knowledge or technical competence. You build it emotional. You build it limbically and empathetically with people. You can build more trust in a conversation with a guy commiserating with them about how his kid wants to play little league, but is scared because he doesn’t think he’s good at sports. And you have a shared experience and you can speak to that experience as a father, that’s going to build more trust with some high level CEO, than expounding on the technical issue he’s dealing with in his business.

Corey Frank (28:35):

Do you find Jeff that as you’ve tested these messages, because you are selling, you’re selling a better life. And as you had said, when you asked 10 people, what is a better life mean? They may have different answers. So you have to sell kind of abstractly, but also big enough and specific enough where there’s enough of a honeypot to want to learn more, walk us through that journey of how you tested different messages, because you can’t go, “Hey, 10X man.” Right? Sometimes that works for some folks, but some are like, “10X? That’s too concentrated. I’m happy with 1.5X.” How do you go through that in a B2C world? Because you’re dealing with so much more volume and your data probably comes at you much faster than it would for Chris or I in the B2B world.

Jeff Lerner (29:27):

Yeah. And I didn’t think about it in these terms in the beginning, but I can say based on how it unfolded and now looking back, this is exactly what I think the right answer is. B2C is all about controlling language and creating meaning in words, words that mean something to you. You need those words to become memes, packets of information, to convey complex ideas. And somebody at some point had to create the word streaming. Now if we go on and we say, “We’re the world’s fastest streaming service.” That’s a whole set of information bundled in the word streaming. But somebody had to create that understanding across culture.

Jeff Lerner (30:12):

So for me, I had to, and this happened again organically because at first I was. I was jumping all around trying to find my messaging, trying to find my consistent group, because I’m talking relationship dynamics and all these theories that I’m pulling from things I’ve studied. Positive discipline with my kids, responsive listening with my wife, things I learned from Gottman at The Love Lab things I learned from Tony Robbins and Unleash the Power Within things I learned from Zig Ziglar on old YouTube videos. And it becomes this hodgepodge of accumulated wisdom, the Six Principles of Persuasion from Robert Cialdini so from that cloud had to emerge my vernacular, my vocabulary that people could start to attach to just like a logo or a brand conjures up feelings and a robust understanding of something.

Jeff Lerner (31:00):

When you’re just a guy talking on the internet, you’re not a logo. You’re not a brand. You have to find words that can accomplish the same thing. And what I ultimately honed in on and this is it. If somebody said, Jeff, to what would you attribute the fact that in the last three years, you’ve sold over 130,000 paying courses, paid students enrolled into your school. That’s not really a school, but Entre Institute. You’re the fastest growing. And one of the largest private education companies in the world, and less than three years ago, you were an unknown dad in a small town in Southern Utah, driving around in your car, shooting videos on your cell phone. How did you do that? I would say, it’s this. I found one really powerful mnemonic theme that everybody resonated with, which is if you want to have an awesome life. My first brand wasn’t Entre Institute, it was actually School of Awesome. Basically I honed in on a set of words, the key to an awesome life is a commitment to excellence.

Jeff Lerner (32:04):

It’s not about money. It’s not about love. It’s not about good luck, it’s not about a six pack. It’s about excellence because progress is happiness and excellence will drive human system progress So you want to have an awesome life. You have to be committed to excellence, but excellence is a big, scary word for a lot of people. So what we’re going to do is we’re going to chunk it into the three PS of excellence. And this becomes a heuristic that you can apply to every second of your life to make sure that you’re either doing something that serves you or you’re doing something that subtracts from your goals and there shall never again be a middle ground between those two poles.

Jeff Lerner (32:41):

The three P’s are, is what I’m doing right now, productive of physical excellence, personal excellence, or professional excellence in my life. If yes, keep doing it. Do more of it. If no, stop doing it, do something that is. Period at the end. Do that now you’ll have a better life a year from now. You can thank me later. I didn’t even try to sell you anything. And again, it took me probably 200 conversations before I converged around that core idea. But once I had it, then I could start riffing in variations on a theme from there. Every conversation I’ve had since then, maybe two and a half years ago, it’s been a variation on that same beam. And now I have people posting, “Yo, yo, my three Ps [inaudible 00:33:22]. I worked out this morning. I took my daughter out for lunch and I made $4,500 in my online business.” Three Ps, woo-hoo. It just created a rallying cry around that concept. But without that, you’re just noise.

 

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On this week’s episode of Market Dominance Guy, Chris Beall continues his conversation with Cherryl Turner, Chief Development Officer of ConnectAndSell’s newest division, Flight School. Together they talk about why it is that of the four sales outcomes — Yes, No, Not me, or Not now — the response that dominates is “Not now.” As Chris explains, “It’s the nature of life.” People are busy. Things come up. Priorities shift. But when a prospect says, “Not now,” what’s a sales rep to do? Push harder and try to squeeze his pitch into the conversation anyway? Or should he relax and bow to the prospect’s protestations that it’s a bad time to talk, by graciously saying, “No problem. I’ll give you a call next week.” It’s an unusual reaction in the high-pressure world of “Make that sale,” but this may be one of the keys to Cherryl’s success in her career: as Chris says, she handles the rigors of cold calling with grace.

It also takes grace to handle the frustration of a no-show. But Chris’s surprising reaction to a cancelled appointment is, “I heart no-shows! They’re my favorite thing in business!” A no-show, he says, makes the relationship more real, because now it’s less perfect. It creates a more-even footing for the next conversation, as well as an opening for a prospect to reveal an insight or two about his business as he explains the why behind his missed appointment. So, when a rep or AE is faced with a no-show and is able to relax and say, “Hey, I understand. I’ll call you back later so we can find a time that will work better for you,” then that improves what Cherryl calls the “trust-o-meter.” She has learned that being persistent with call-backs to “Not now’s” and “No shows” lets her prospects know that she believes in the potential value of what she is selling. And you can believe me when I say, you’re going to want to hear every minute of this week’s episode of Market Dominance Guys, “I Heart No-Shows!”

 

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Market Dominance Guys is brought to you by

ConnectAndSell. ConnectAndSell allows your sales reps to talk to more decision-makers in 90 minutes than they would in a week or more of conventional dialing. Your reps can finally be 100% focused on selling, even when working 100% from home since all of their CRM data entry and follow-up scheduling is fully automated within ConnectAndSell’s powerful platform. Your team’s effectiveness will skyrocket by using ConnectAndSell’s teleprompter capability as they’ll know exactly what to say during critical conversations. Visit, ConnectAndSell.com where conversations matter.

  

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Here is the complete transcript from this episode:

Cherryl Turner (02:46):

Well, I think of the way that my husband and I met. It was an ambush conversation. We were sitting next to each other, and it was that other moment, right? If he had pushed, “I’ve got to know that you want  me,” right at the very first conversation, I would’ve said, “There’s the road. You can take a long walk on that one.” But it’s not. (laughing). That just kind of came to my head. I was like, “Oh, we can apply this to any part of our life,” right? Which is true. It’s the same with cold calls. It’s an ambush conversation, and however you want to turn it, if you are a full cycle rep going after a targeted list or if you’re trying to crack into a new market or if it’s just high-volume cold calling, it applies across the board, because you always have to have initial first conversations, regardless if you’re trying to continue to build relationships or if they don’t know you from Adam.

So that is critical. So if that relaxation and that confidence, you take that on for them, they feel that over the phone and this exchange of emotion that you’re having with this person. It allows them freedom to, “Okay,” and they’ll want to actually meet with you. It’s okay if it takes two or three or four conversations to get there. I honestly believe that meeting will end up being more productive, because they already know you have their best interest at heart.

Chris Beall (04:10):

You were willing to call them again. I mean, face it.

Cherryl Turner (04:10):

Exactly. Yeah.

Chris Beall (04:15):

People like attention. They like somebody who cares enough about them. That first time that they don’t attend the meeting, that could be just a little tiny test that’s not … You think about this. It’s like, “Does somebody care enough?” I was watching a couple of mourning doves that were having a discussion this morning about whether they should be making mourning dove babies. He flew up on the roof, and that’s kind of like, “Well, are you going to come up here or not?” (laughing).

Cherryl Turner (04:41):

That’s awesome. (laughing).

Chris Beall (04:43):

It’s such a basic thing. If it’s so true for mourning doves, maybe it could be true for the rest of us. But yesterday I was having a nice chat with Pat Lynch, who is running sales enablement for LivePerson at the moment in global sales enablement. He was reminiscing with me about when he had come to connect in Saul’s office in Denver and witnessed something. He stayed all day and watched people work, and I left so that I wouldn’t inhibit him. He was doing work for CSO Insights, and so he was getting some chief sales officer insights by observing. When I came back from my going away and talking to customers, I asked him, “What’d you see?” He said, “Chris, I don’t know how to tell you this. We’ve got to go in the conference room and shut the door.”

We went in and shut the door, and he said, “See that guy right there?” I said, “Yeah, that’s Jordan Dufour.” He goes, “He’s the inventor of 27 Seconds. He’s a famous dude.” He said, “He did something I’ve never seen before. A CEO that he got on the phone said, ‘Hey, I’m busy. I’ve got to go into a meeting right now.’ Instead of trying to get more out of him, he just said, ‘Oh, that’s great. Okay. I’ll call you next week. I’ll give you a shout on Tuesday.’ Boom. He just moved on. I went and asked him, ‘Why? Why didn’t you try to get a meeting with him? You had a CEO.’ He said, ‘Well, what do you mean? I’ll talk to him next week. I have ConnectAndSell.'” That was when Pat said, “I didn’t realize that a mechanical change of just being able to talk to 10 times more people would result in an emotional change, where the rep is relaxing.” He said, “And I see it around your office. Then it creates a cultural change.” That’s the one everybody’s trying to get to.

Cherryl Turner (06:23):

Absolutely.

Chris Beall (06:25):

So here you are, doing it, but I still don’t think we’ve solved this problem. Now, I’m wondering, is it possible that the SDR as a separate role has a built-in problem that people aren’t realizing, which is that as an AE, as a full cycle rep, as the chief development officer of ConnectAndSell’s Flight School division, you are free to do anything you want? You can set those meetings, and if they don’t happen, you don’t have any trouble then, right? You just put them in your followup, and then you get on and make some more cold calls. What’s the difference? You don’t care when you’re cold calling.

But if you were two people, one of whom is serving the other with meetings, and it’s not a pure relationship, because you can have an easy peer relationship with yourself, right? Then when you set a meeting with your counterpart and it doesn’t happen that they get to point the finger at you and say, “You’re setting meetings that are not happening. You better improve the show rate.” Yet, to improve the show rate, they have to sell after the close, which is the one thing we tell salespeople never to do. Have we built in a problem that leadership has got to address one way or another to make the SDR, BDR thing work, given that they could be converting at 75% like you and Scott Webb? In fact, they’re converting at 3%. Maybe it’s because they’ve been told, “Don’t convert.” Maybe we don’t know we’re telling them this, but we’re saying, “Don’t convert unless it’s perfect,” and nothing’s perfect. Is that possible?

Cherryl Turner (07:57):

That’s just it, right? We think it’s got to be a perfect scenario. It’s got to be a perfect fit. What is intriguing is I’ve been on both sides of that table. In fact, the majority of my career, until I came over to you, was the SDR, right? So as as a consultant and partner of yours, I’ve worked for PE firms, and I’ve worked in every industry you can imagine, helping either to build pipeline or help them develop, sales development, or get a process in place, et cetera. Many times, I would have to prove the process, to show them, “This can scale. This does work,” et cetera.

In the beginning of my career, well, and even right before I came over, I would support executives or CEOs themselves, and there was a little bit of pushback when I said, “You have to trust the process. They don’t show up, then it’s better, because you would have crammed something down their throat they weren’t ready for. If they’re worried about some other meeting they have to go to, they’re not listening to you. That’s not going to be a productive conversation. If they are squeezed, then you wait until it is a good time.” So when you are armed with AI, that is what ConnectAndSell offers, you introduce a new level of efficiency for SDRs and BDRs.

I would also add to that, and this is where a lot of my passion comes from, but that’s not taught. It’s almost the BDR, SDR role as a pit stop to, “I’ve got to hurry up and learn this so I can go into marketing or I can go on somewhere else.” Now, if that is someone’s passion, that’s one thing. But I didn’t realize that BDR, I could create a career or build a career around this, and I have. It’s been an amazing journey, an absolutely amazing journey. It’s been constant friction, because that’s what we’re told. We’re told it can’t work if we don’t have them 100% qualified, and that is never the case. Like you said, Chris, nothing is ever 100%, and the prospect is never going to be 100%. No one is ever an end all to everything, because that’s not the way life is.

So if we can take that fear and allow reps to say, “You know what? I had a good conversation with them. I expressed a certain amount of curiosity and trust enough that they will show up eventually. So just let me call them back, AE, sales director. Let me call them back. I’ll put them back in my list, and we will get them back on the phone,” because guess what? They answered the phone the first time. They will a second or third or fourth or fifth time, right? It shows them, “I am persistent, because I do believe in the potential value of this meeting for you, human being.” That is the tone, and that’s the approach. They feel that. If sales leadership allows, you aren’t changing the conversation, Chris, because this is something that has been kind of bugging me throughout my career, because I always see it. Regardless if it was a new company I was helping, it’s like rinse and repeat. You’re like, “Oh, here we go again.”

That’s because you won’t know that until you have probably several conversations with them, because that’s also a process. They’re not going to divulge everything on the first discovery meeting. I hope you have more conversations on this as far as leadership, allowing SDRs to set meetings in that approach. If they do have something like … Actually, there is nothing else like [inaudible 00:11:31], so there is ConnectAndSell. That’s it, because it is different than … We’re not a dialer. It is unlike anything else.

What I love about Flight School is when you pair the two, the coaching with what Flight School does with ConnectAndSell, you’re unstoppable, that relaxation, and you’re able to focus on, “Hey, change this a little bit, and you’ll see an uptick in interest.” In fact, that’s what Tony Crawford did to me the first time I was on. He was like, “Hey, I noticed … Have you tried this? Here’s this other point.” I was like, “No, I hadn’t even realized.” He was like, “Hey, try this.” I was like, “Okay,” and it changed. It was awesome.

Chris Beall (12:09):

It’s amazing, isn’t it? It’s amazing how the nuances of the conversation, the nuances of our mindset have profound effects on results. Now here’s this new one I’ll call it. I’ll call it I heart no-shows.

Cherryl Turner (12:24):

(laughing). Right?

Chris Beall (12:26):

Right? I want the title of this episode to be I Heart No-Shows, because when you come right down to it, I mean, I do heart no-shows. I love them. I think I might’ve told this story on this show before, where I was walking down the street with my fiance, and she’s a much bigger deal in sales than I am. So I get on with somebody from a big hotel chain, and we have a scheduled meeting with three people from that company. That’s a nice thing for ConnectAndSell, And I still sell. I suppose people probably know this, but we finance our company by selling. I realize it’s a bizarre notion in Silicon Valley, but that’s how we do it. We kind of do it by having the folks at the top sell without taking commissions, because if I took a commission, by the way, I’d act just like everybody else. I’d want every deal. So I just can relax, no commission, just sell.

But anyways, a pretty important-sounding meeting. I got on with Marjorie, who was the person who was from the other side who was going to put this together. She said, “Oh, Chris, I’m so sorry. Both of the other participants just had something come up.” I said, “Fantastic. I’ll shoot you an email, and we can get something else on the books when it’s convenient for all three of you. Thanks so much for letting me know right now. We would have figured it out eventually, but I really, really appreciate it.”

She kind of changed her tone and said, “Oh, well, do you want to talk a little bit right now?” I said, “We could, but I really think this is something where we should all explore together. So let’s just get something where all three of us are on. That’ll be great.” I hung up, and Helen turns to me. She says, “Oh, a no-show. That must have been disappointing.” I said, “Are you kidding? It’s my favorite thing in business,” not just in sales. It is my very, very favorite thing in business, is a no-show, because in a funny way, it just makes the relationship more real, because it’s less perfect.

Cherryl Turner (14:31):

What’s interesting is when you approach that, Chris, what you just said, some people call that … I was thinking through this, actually, over the last week or so. I was like, “What is it about Scott? What is it?” James Johnson’s also very good at this, listening to him. I don’t want to get in trouble with me dropping his name in this, but what I love about it, that it’s a mindset of abundance or scarcity, and I think that’s where the problem is with senior leadership in sales. What is sad is I think many could-be awesome sales potentials are lost because they think, “If this is the grind I have to consistently go through, why bother?”

I was up against a lot. I had managers that didn’t leave until … Oh my gosh. I have stories beyond stories. But what I held true to was there is something here. So gratefully, I had kind of the personality to stick through it and to be open to adjusting and learning and pivoting. I have been nothing but blessed with that, but it’s consistent friction of this mindset that leadership tends to have that if it’s not qualified, doesn’t count. Then that puts so much pressure on the rep, and you don’t find out the talent you have because of that mindset. Organic growth goes out the window. You could have just lost probably the best thing that ever happened to your sales department if we continue to maintain this attitude, and I hope this does end up changing the conversation in the industry, because it is important. It’s still constantly out there, right?

You see it on LinkedIn. You see it everywhere, but it really changes the trajectory of the conversation and the relationship, and I would dare say that it improves the trust-o-meter I mean tenfold, if not more, when the rep is able to relax and say, “It will fall into a time when it does work for them,” because companies are constantly in and out of looking for something, right? “This didn’t work. There’s got to be a better way.” Well, that’s why you’re calling them, right? They don’t know.

What is interesting is a lot of people, especially prospects, come to the table thinking the meeting is going to be about one thing, right? They’ve already categorized you prematurely. But what I love is, I mean, the meetings we’ve had with the Flight … “This is nothing like what I thought it’d be.” That’s fantastic. I’m glad that that’s the case, right? It wasn’t a death by PowerPoint. In fact, I had to like, “Oh, do you have something to show?” I was like, “No, we’re just going to talk. I just want to find out what you’re doing, what’s important to you and important to continue talking. We will.” She said, “Oh, okay.” Then what’s crazy is this isn’t rocket science. We have been conditioned to not act like humans in sales, especially in business development.

Cherryl Turner (19:11):

I would hope that there’s more women out there also, Chris, as a woman, right? I hope there’s more out, because I think we also have a certain touch that brings, I think, a refreshing approach to sales also. Anyway, it really is fascinating, to be honest. So with this approach that we were talking about, Chris, it’s kind of an excavator. You put the claw in the ground. You goop it up, and you put it through the hopper, right? Whatever crunches through. If they show up, great. If they don’t, that’s all right. You put it back in the hopper, and eventually, it will stick. Eventually, it will run into a time that’s good for them. That’s what allows a rep to relax.

Chris Beall (19:47):

Yeah, and what I love about that analogy is the alternative is … This is, I think, the modern sales stack. We arm the reps with all this tools and all this technology.

Cherryl Turner (19:59):

Oh, I know.

Chris Beall (19:59):

Then when they get up there to the point where they’re going to have that big claw come down and take a scoop, they take the scoop, and then they shut the machine off and get their gold pan out. They go through, swirling and looking for a nugget and looking for a nugget. Sure enough, only 3% are nuggets, and the rest of it’s bad. It’s just ore. That’s the nature of the beast, whereas they could have just said, “Look, I don’t know what might be right or wrong. This is the only ore we’ve got right now, so I’m going to scoop it up. I’m going to put it in the crusher. I’m going to let it go through its process, and whatever comes out the other end, that’s great. Whatever doesn’t, I’m going to process it again”-

Cherryl Turner (20:40):

Exactly.

Chris Beall (20:41):

… “because I’ve got this crusher here, and it can just crush,” right? When I hear people talk about crushing their number, I think, “Well, I don’t think you’re crushing your number. I think you’re panning for the occasional little gold nugget, hoping that you can run with it over to somebody and say, ‘I got this gold nugget here,'” whereas it’s not the nuggets that make the business. It’s what’s in the ore overall and your ability to process it. So it’s so interesting to me that you talk about being human. In a way, it’s being human that lets us make a sales machine.

Cherryl Turner (21:18):

Yeah. It really is mind-blowing. I mean, it’s not and it is at the same time, right? You’re like … (laughing).

Chris Beall (21:19):

(laughing). It’s totally unsurprising and totally mind-blowing.

Cherryl Turner (21:26):

Right. It’s crazy how much we complicate this, right? We do. But why? What I love about this mindset of abundance with just let whatever falls through fall through, that is a mindset of abundance. That is belief, going back to the Forbes podcast, right? It is true when he said it’s this inner belief that, “You know what? Just let it fall where it falls.” Whatever falls off, just put it back in, and it will get polished enough to where it will be the right time. It will stick, and you’ll have a great conversation when that happens. Yes. It really is amazing.

Chris Beall (22:06):

Yeah. We say sales conversations have four outcomes, yes, no, not me, not now. We say not now dominates because of the nature of life. When we look at we’re selling a meeting, not now should dominate that also. So if not now dominates, then let’s float the question of when, rather than insisting that when be nailed down, and then let’s provide ourselves with something else to do whenever there’s a meeting that is a no-show. I think that might be the other magic of ConnectAndSell. So a meeting is a no-show, I know you always do the same thing. Well, you don’t do one thing. You don’t complain. You do another thing. You fire up your followup list, and you have that person on it and other people. You talk to them or whoever, and you make good use of that time.

So I think the other thing is in the abundant sense, people who are selling, they feel like, “I set aside time for the meeting, and now it’s a no-show.” Well, first of all, they probably over-researched for it. So for that 15-minute meeting, they probably researched 30 minutes, and then when the meeting doesn’t happen, it’s like, “Oh, I wasted that research, because I won’t remember it.” Well, in that case, maybe just don’t do the research, and be prepared to hold an honest discovery conversation and let somebody tell you what they know.

Chris Beall (23:26):

But then the other part is and then when the no-show is a no-show, how can you heart no-shows if you don’t have anything to do when they no-show and you want to be efficient? Well, the answer is just push the button and talk to somebody else. You are the constrained resource. You are always the constrained resource. So just go ahead to the resource unconstrainer, which is this thing called ConnectAndSell, and push the button and have some more conversations, because they’re moving the ball forward, too, somehow. You just don’t know exactly where or when.

Cherryl Turner (23:58):

I mean, thinking over, just listening to your podcast with you and Corey and some of the brilliant minds you’ve had on so far, you always talk about market dominance, right? So this idea of I heart no-shows, that is what enables also the undercurrent of what helps you dominate your market, because if you’re not in consistent motion, that’s what allows the consistent motion, right? When you require reps to, “You’ve got to make sure it’s way past the line before you can call it qualified or you can count this meeting,” or whatever, mentally, it is not for the faint of heart, right? Cold calling never has been. But when you introduce a mindset of abundance and allow it to you, “You know what? Did well, do your best, it will fall into when it’s time that’s good for them.”

That is the undercurrent that enables market dominance, is that coupled, right, with ConnectAndSell and Flight School, because you’re able to adjust and pivot in real time and become better as a human being, right? Talking to another human being and making those connections, improving people’s lives, right? With what you do offer. There’s a lot of awesome that’s out there in the market. We just get in our own way, because we feel like it’s got to look a certain way or the conversation has to be exactly a certain way. That’s not the case.

Chris Beall (25:30):

Oddly enough, there’s the other great irony, right? You need a great script in order to relax enough to be a human.

Cherryl Turner (25:37):

Yes. (laughing).

Chris Beall (25:39):

Isn’t that funny? I mean, some people equate scripts with being a robot. I take the opposite point of view, which is the script liberates you to be yourself.

Cherryl Turner (25:48):

Yes. I still have mine. Just like Matt Forbes was saying, “Oh, my wife laughs at me,” my husband does, too. So it’s right there, and when I’m at the park with my kid, I have it with me. It does liberate you. It takes it to a whole new level. You feel it as a rep, and that’s what fuels you, because you begin. It just takes you to a whole new realm, I would say. It really is an awesome place to be when you can get to that point.

Chris Beall (26:16):

Yeah, and the script, I think, is to the rep. I’ve always said the script is the surfboard and the rep’s voice is the surfer. But there’s another analogy, which is the script is the checklist for the pilot. Without the checklist, you’d be one worried pilot, especially if you had people onboard that airplane, including yourself. So the checklist doesn’t turn the pilot into a robot. It frees the pilot up to do the human stuff that’s really important, which might include reassuring the passengers that the airplane does go up and fly and come down, Flight School style, and it comes down in a controlled way and you can handle the turbulence and all that. But it’s also like if you want to bring your complete self to a situation, you need to not be inventing your response to the known parts of the situation as you go along. That’s kind of wild, right? It’d be kind of like saying, “Here’s how I drive my car. I get in, and I have no idea what I do next, because I just want to be so expressive.”

Cherryl Turner (27:15):

(laughing).

Chris Beall (27:15):

But, I mean, it doesn’t make any sense. It’s an order of operations. It’s a script. I get in. I close the door. I put on my seatbelt. I put the key in … This car that I drive, you still put a key in a slot. I know for a lot of people, this is odd. It’s a Subaru that can hold 24 cases of wine, so it’s really, really a good car. Check the handbrake, and you’ve done your walk-around. Make sure there’s no children behind the car, or make sure you live in a place where there aren’t any. If you do these things, you don’t just go, “Oh, I just don’t feel like a very human driver, because I do things in a certain order and I know about it in advance.” It’s just allowing you to take the predictable parts and turn those into something that you don’t have to worry about.

I think that’s what a script does, is it reduces our worry level about what we’re going to say next and lets us then respond appropriately in tone of voice, in cadence, and in responding. When somebody says, “Well, Cherryl, tell me more,” you need to be in a pretty special place to say, “We’ve learned the hard way that an ambush conversation like this isn’t a fair setting to talk about something this important. I’m a morning person. Are you? How’s your Wednesday?” That takes real stance, right? The surfboard has just been chomped on by the shark, and you’ve got to have some real balance to do something about that, other than just fall in the water and enjoy your relationship with the shark.

Cherryl Turner (28:49):

Splashing all around, trying to … (laughing). Yeah.

Chris Beall (28:51):

Yeah, which tends to be what happens. So, well, I tell you what. I have a funny feeling about this episode. I think you’ve said nine things during this episode. Each one of the nine things could be a chapter in a book on how to handle the rigors and handle them with grace that come with cold calling, the most important thing that we do in business. I know some people are saying still cold calling shouldn’t exist, right? Well, in a competitive world, having first conversations that build trust is probably going to be around for a while, because competitively, it’s superior to waiting. It’s the time game, just played the other way around. So I just want to thank you for coming on. I know that this is not your thing. I can tell you’re fabulous. You have no idea how good you really are. So it’s just [crosstalk 00:29:46].

Cherryl Turner (29:45):

Oh, thanks, Chris. I would like to add one more thing, Chris. I’ve been brainstorming in real time. You asked what made the difference, right? I have been fortunate enough to have leadership, senior leadership, mostly CEOs, that have believed in me enough to allow me to do my thing when it came to building pipeline. That built my confidence, and when I had a CEO that was in Belgium and he ran a company that he built from the ground up, digital asset management, and I was the first introduction of outbound sales development, completely foreign to this company. The way that he led, he taught belief in what they sold. I’ve been fortunate enough that the CEO that brought me on for this company also ran his leadership that way, and I’ve learned from you the same.

So I’ve been fortunate enough to rally around like-minded mindset of abundance, right, leadership that taught that way. When leadership begins to think that way and believe in their SDRs, we will begin to see a shift in market dominance as we know it. It really is. So I feel nothing but blessed with the networks, the connections I’ve made throughout my career. Just love and enjoy, soak everything in in learning from them, right? They all have something to offer. That really is something. So I think when we can allow ourselves to be taught and to teach and believe in each other within sales organizations, we can begin to relax and begin to dominate our markets. It will make a difference.

Chris Beall (31:29):

I love it. So Cherryl, I want people to know how to get a hold of you, both selfishly, because you’re selling something that I hold near and dear to my heart, which is Flight School. I actually think Flight School is the most transformative product I’ve ever been associated with in a fairly long career of transformative products. I thought ConnectAndSell was special. I still do. I thought the Breakthrough Script was special as a form of technology. You’re one of the very first people ever to have heard it in the wild. You were exposed to the wild-type virus called the Breakthrough Script years ago. In fact, I was with you in one place in Utah when James Townson and team unleashed the Breakthrough Script somewhere else and got a 15 times improvement in conversation or meetings per day. But I actually think Flight School is maybe more special than anything.

Admittedly, as you and I both know, it rests on ConnectAndSell, and it rests most easily on the Breakthrough Script. That’s not required, but it’s something that just kind of makes it easier. Breakthrough Script is plenty good enough to run a Flight School, I guess is how I would put it.

But if folks want to get a hold of you, I can tell them how to do that. Cherryl, C-H-E-R-R-Y-L. See the two R’s? That’s because she’s special. 40 miles south of here, we’d be rolling those R’s, and we’d call you Cherryl. Cherryl Turner, T-U-R-N-E-R, because she will turn your entire world around. If you want to explore Flight School, she’ll talk to you, even if you’re a smaller company, but she might pass you off to somebody else. Her job is to actually help the biggest companies in the world embrace something that’s a little bit hard because of change management, which is going 10 times faster and being 10 times more effective.

But if somebody wants to experience 100X, 100X doesn’t come along every day of the week, and it’ll sound like something else entirely. You’ll come to the meeting, and you’ll say, “This isn’t what I expected,” just like Cheryl said, but reach out to her, cheryl.turner@connectandsell.com. I’m sure on LinkedIn, she’s find-able also. Failing all that, I think people watching this know how to get ahold of me. I’m Chris Beall, and I’m just really tickled to be hosting Market Dominance Guys today with Cherryl Turner. Thanks so much, Cherryl.

Cherryl Turner (33:56):

Thank you, Chris. It’s an honor. Appreciate it.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

In this week’s Market Dominance Guys’ podcast, Chris Beall conducts a solo interview with Cherryl Turner, Chief Development Officer of ConnectAndSell’s new Flight School Division. In the first episode of this two-part conversation, Cherryl relays to Chris how she got started in cold calling and about the important experiences she had talking with prospects — experiences that helped shape how she approaches cold calls and conducts meeting-setting conversations today.

As an example, Cherryl recounts a pivotal moment during a call with a prospect, in which she had the impulse to stop talking and just listen — instead of pushing to make the sale — and how the whole tone of the conversation warmed up after that. This was a career changer for her! Chris alludes to this when he describes Cherryl, touting her practice of conversing with each prospect as a peer and the way she is constantly looking to understand and help them. Feel free to borrow everything you’ll learn in this week’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, as Cherryl Turner shares “The Secret of Her Success.”

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About Our Guest Cherryl

Turner is Chief Development Officer of ConnectAndSell’s new Flight School Division, a four-session, cold-call conversation training program for sale reps. Previously founder and CEO of BDPro Solutions, Cherryl’s extensive expertise encompasses sales and business development.

Here is the full transcript from this episode:

Chris Beall (01:41):

Hey everybody, this is Chris Beall, and I am actually going to be the interviewer on Market Dominance Guys today. Corey Frank probably was available, maybe not. I don’t know. He’s a busy guy off there running Youngblood Works and doing all manner of other things. I just thought today, a conversation that I was having earlier in the day with Cherryl Turner was worth expanding on for this audience. 

I think as everybody knows, Market Dominance Guys is all about the nuts and bolts of dominating markets and doing so with what we call a conversation-first approach. Cherryl has been a master of the conversation-first approach to dominate everything as far as I’ve known. For a number of years before I met her, she did that kind of stuff for a number of other companies, including InsideSales.com, now XANT. 

We stumbled across each other, I would say, at what we call a test drive of ConnectAndSell where she was participating in the test drive, rather skeptically I would say. She can maybe tell us a little bit about that. It didn’t take very long for us to realize that we were kindred spirits and believed the same kind of stuff. One thing led to another, and just recently, very recently, five weeks ago, she joined ConnectAndSell as our chief development officer for our Flight School Division. 

We’re taking our world-famous Flight School out into the world as a standalone product. Cherryl is our head of sales for that and head of marketing and head of thinking things up and making the scripts actually work, and all sorts of things. She’s kind enough to bring me into an occasional meeting and I yap a little bit. I’m Chris Beall, not Corey Frank. I’d like to introduce you to Cherryl Turner. Cherryl, welcome to the show.

Cherryl Turner (03:44):

Thank you, Chris. Always a pleasure.

Chris Beall (03:46):

It’s truly an honor to have the real deal on this program. Corey and I could be accused of a number of things, but I don’t think either one of us is going to be considered the real deal when it comes to cold-calling. We just have reputations. I’m going to guess that you have cold-called somebody on an average of more than, oh, I don’t know, 20 times a day for each day, except for weekends and time off with family and so forth. 

I don’t know if you do that, in the last, what? Five, six, seven years? Maybe beyond that. How did you get into cold-calling? Why are you attracted to something that is so repulsive to so many people?

Cherryl Turner (04:27):

It’s a fascinating story actually, Chris. I really started my career … You mentioned InsideSales.com. I was just an entry-level BD. In fact, when they hired me, when I got interviewed, I didn’t even know what a CRM was. I came from Vivint, selling alarm systems to B2C markets. What I did know about myself … I wasn’t concerned that I didn’t know what a CRM was, or didn’t know I need to know what a CRM was, but I did know who I was. So I always enjoyed proving the impossible possible. 

That’s just something that runs through my blood. That is what I sold what was going to be my boss. I ended up blowing ‘out of the market’, or in our department. Not only that, but spearheading new companies that InsideSales.com ended up acquiring, even though none of the sales reps really knew what they were about, so I did my own research and just hitting 250/300 quota.

Chris Beall (05:28):

That’s interesting. I hadn’t heard this story about you spearheading the go-to-market thrust and the growth trajectory of new acquisitions. I mean, that’s really hard to do. Did you have to learn everything about their product before you were capable of setting meetings to sell their product?

Cherryl Turner (05:45):

No. I actually learned with each conversation. After that, I almost was … I wasn’t editing myself on calls, but as I was listening to people and learning about what was important to them, I went back and did research on my own time, because I wanted to talk to as many of these people as possible. Then I adjusted to what and learned as I went. I would not say I was an expert per se. I did do my due diligence and learned as much as I could about the company that they had acquired.

Then I even had senior leadership come to me, including … I don’t know if I can name-drop, but Jim Steele, they had brought Jim Steele in. He said, “What are you doing? Are you doing this?” It ended up being their leading product because of what I was able to create for the company. It started with a belief. They gave us a one-pager on it, and the little I did know, I found it fascinating. I was like, “Well, this is interesting. This is new. What does this little company do?” 

What they did was pretty unique and interesting to me. I believed in what I learned of them at that point and then I brought that to the conversations when I was talking with people, and then pivoting and learning as I was going through that. The more conversations I had, the more I fell in love with it, because I realized at the end of the day, people want to be successful and they’re still human beings, right? 

They still have insecurities. They still have things that they have to accomplish and look good in their roles. We’re all the same at the end of the day. It was fascinating to be a part of that. That’s I think the passion that ran through my veins, if you will.

Chris Beall (07:34):

Oh, that’s fascinating. As you said, we’re all the same. I’ve always told people when I talk about you, “Cherryl sees herself as an equal of everybody on earth. So when she’s talking to somebody, she’s always talking as a peer looking to help them and to understand them.” I think that’s really remarkable. I think most salespeople, all of us in fact, have got some degree of, “Well, I’m the supplicant. I’m coming. I’m asking you to do something for me.”

Because after all the salesperson’s setup, so to speak, is, “If everything goes well, eventually we get a deal. I make quota and I get commission. Therefore, you’re doing things for me.” How did you come to this point of view? This is a really different point of view than I run into. You said you came right out of alarm system sales. Was that door to door, by the way, or was that by the phone or what?

Cherryl Turner (08:26):

No. It was just in Provo, the Vivint down in Provo, just call it part of the outside sales department there, just an entry-level team. Yeah. I started there and not really talking to people, but when I got to InsideSales, that’s really where my career began to take shape, if you will. Talking with these entrepreneurs, these CEOs. I was calling in to senior leadership, and I really enjoyed talking to senior leadership.

I came from a world that not many understand. They’re always on. Their brain is always on, “How can I tweak this or improve that in my business? How can I create organic growth and what have you?” I always love learning from those people. When I was at InsideSales, I think the shift, Chris, to your question happened, I was calling it. It was just high volume calling. People that downloaded whitepapers or looked at something on our website or what have you.

The initial entry was, “Hey, we noticed you had downloaded a whitepaper. Just calling to follow up on that. Did you get a chance to read that? I’m interested in what’s going on in your world.” I don’t remember her last name. I don’t remember the name of the company, but her name was Karen, and she was the CEO of this company. They were about mid-level actually, I do remember that.

For the first time, and I’d probably been in about three weeks in, I had the most amazing conversation with this woman because something inside of me clicked and said, “Just stop and listen.” I had an agenda. I had to make quota. I had to, “Hey, yeah, let’s get you over to a hot lead, a hot transfer.” Right? I was push, push, push. We had just barely acquired this other company so I was still in this other position, this entry-level BD position.

Karen, when I was talking with her, it was the longest conversation. I think we ended up talking 15 minutes or so, which is almost taboo. You don’t want to be on the phone that long. I said, “You know, Karen.” I said, “After listening to what you’ve told me.” I said, “I don’t believe that this other core product of this company fits you, but we just recently acquired a new company and this is what they do.” 

What I have learned that they do, right? We just acquired them. I explained this to her. I said, “Do you think that may be beneficial to you just based on what you told me?” Immediately her tone changed. She wasn’t sounding desperate, but she was frustrated and I could sense that in her voice. I took the insecurity that she was … Not insecurity, but the uncertainty, if you will. 

I said, “Here’s something that might possibly help you. I don’t know if it will or not, but here’s some information. We can have a conversation.” She said, “Actually, that does intrigue me.” It was a hot transfer, but what is interesting, as a sales rep, full cycle sales rep, didn’t even know how to pitch it. I was like, “Just listen to her.” I’m like, “We just acquired this company.” That is the switch. 

That was the switch that I realized these CEOs were all the same, essentially. Also, something interesting is I always cared about who I was talking with, because we are human and it does matter. End of this big blue worry parent, as you like to say, Chris, it does matter. That’s how I really started.

Chris Beall (11:58):

Well, that’s fascinating. It resonates with me as a door-to-door salesperson who had to make some money quickly back in the day. I realized very quickly in that process, on about door three or four, nobody was going to buy anything from me. They opened the door into the desert heat in Arizona, but maybe I could do something for them. Maybe we could just have a very short human conversation, very short because the door was open and you know, in Arizona, we’re talking five bucks a minute when your door is open.

The air conditioning pumping out trying to cool off the entire desert. I think that transition is the transition that lets people go from okay and somewhat unsatisfied as salespeople, to it being, I wouldn’t say effortless, but in a way it is. Like, what’s the effort that goes into talking? Not much. But the effort that goes into listening could be substantial and maintaining that listening posture, right? 

I mean, can you think back to any deals where you heard something during a conversation? This might be impossible by the way because I can’t remember these myself, but put me on the spot a little bit. Can you think of any situation where you were talking to somebody and you suddenly realized that you hadn’t quite listened to them? Then it’s like, “Hang on a second.”

You ask them a question or you replay it in your mind and end up going somewhere that turns out to be relatively important for them and maybe good for your company. Is that an experience you’ve had, or is that something that you’ve been such a good listener from the get-go you don’t trip up like that?

Cherryl Turner (13:43):

Right. No. We always trip up. I think becoming good in sales is not an episodic event. It’s always a journey. I don’t care how seasoned you are. If you’re always open to improving, it shines through in your approach and your tone with them because now you care. To answer your question, if I had a quarter for every time that I experienced that, that’s always going on. We’re human. We’re going to make mistakes. We’re going to rush through it.

We’re going to talk too fast. I flap my lips sometimes too much, you know? That’s okay though. Before my conversation with Karen, I was, I think focused … There was this pressure. She downloaded the whitepaper. This person downloaded this. Did you get it over? Did you get a totally qualified lead, right? Or whatever you want to call it. Every company calls it different. It was worry that I’ve got to get this person through so that I can meet quota.

When you remind shifts, it all falls into place because that comes through. You take the uncertainty that they’re feeling and you eat it yourself as a rep. You’re not concerned even if they show up to the meeting, because when you’re empowered … And I’m going to go to ConnectAndSell, because before coming on with you, Chris, I was a partner of yours and brought it into many companies because I saw the power of it and was a believer.

When you are empowered and not have to worry about, “Am I going to get this person back on the phone?” Well, the answer is yes, you will. That concern and that pressure is taken away so you can actually focus on listening. You can focus on improving the conversation. Getting those tidbits of information. They need to hear enough to want to accept a meeting with you. If they can’t, nine times out of 10, it’s not because they don’t like you.

It has nothing to do with you. It really has nothing to do with you. It has to do everything with them and everyone is busy, but there’s always time when they can make time and that concern disappears. There are several times where I edited in real time and I blew it so many times, and still do sometimes, but that’s okay because you learn from those. Because I’m constantly listening to calls. I was listening to Scott Webb this morning and his team.

I was listening to James Townsend and Donny. Donny Crawford, the Yoda of Flight School and Matthew Forbes. I took some tidbits from him actually in my redirects from my script. I love learning from my peers. I love learning from those who are excellent in doing certain things in their approach.

Chris Beall (18:28):

It’s interesting right there, so when I called you today, I called you back. You dialed me and it was a very short call and it rang once and then you weren’t there. I was actually in a meeting doing something to do with something completely different. It had nothing to do with sales and everything to do with how systems worked and this and that. Then when I called you back, in the background I could hear someone talking.

I thought, “Oh, how interesting? It doesn’t sound like somebody that I know in Cherryl’s house.” You eventually learn many of the voices over time. You were listening to calls from somebody that you knew was doing something different. I know you must have seen the numbers. This is somebody who is converting conversations to meeting at about a three out of four pace.

Frankly, he feels like that’s not enough. I know that he feels that’s not enough, that he thinks [crosstalk 00:19:25].

Cherryl Turner (19:25):

[crosstalk 00:19:25] I know [crosstalk 00:19:25] feel.

Chris Beall (19:27):

[inaudible 00:19:27]. Yeah. A hundred percent, right? You were listening and you hit the pause button and we talked about actually what was going on in those conversations. The reason I wanted to have you on today is that we had Matt Forbes on recently. Matt was talking about the power of belief and what happened to him inside and what happened to his results as a result of that transformation inside of himself.

When he finally, I’ll say crossed the chasm from uncertainty and self-interest, to belief in the potential value of the meeting that he was offering for this human being that he was talking with, regardless of how that meeting might go, what might happen or not happen as a result. He described that in a pretty compelling way. Scott Webb, the guy you were listening to, I got a call from him once that said, “I’m going to try something. I think there’s a mindset shift that will make a big difference.”

Folks, anybody listening to this, Scott Webb is not just some guy walking down the street. I mean, he’s a chief development officer of a multi-billion dollar insurance brokerage. Number four in the world. I would predict soon to be number three, then two, then one, on organic growth alone. God knows what’ll happen when the inorganic power of the organic growth starts to get whipped up. 

He is personally using ConnectAndSell and leading his team through Flight School, which is what Cherryl sells. He’s doing blitz and coach stuff. We help. I don’t know why we help, because he’s so good. I think we’re learning from him, not the other way around, but what was it about what Scott was doing that made you want to listen to him? Then, have you tried any of it? Because it’s kind of crazy stuff.

If you really think about this mindset shift of insisting that someone take the meeting for their own good, it seems to have these vast implications, especially if you have the power of connection, which does one thing really, really well. It gets people on the phone, especially people you’ve talked with before, because, hey you know they answer the phone. That’s why they’re in your follow-up list. Tell me that story. How’s that gone?

Cherryl Turner (21:45):

Yeah. This transition has happened I think just in the last week, kind of the same thing that happened with Forbes, which by the way, I love that podcast because I think I’ve listened to it like two or three times now, but it’s true, everything he’d said. The approach that Scott had … And he’s teaching his team, and you can tell the transition over time too. He’s not overly concerned if it’s a hundred percent written in blood, “I’m going to show up to this meeting.” 

It is an insistence that, “We’ll find a time. I’m going to shoot this out to you. If it works, great. If not, we’ll move it around. I’m not concerned necessarily if this is a slam dunk or not. If you show up, great. I know the importance of this meeting.” That comes through in his tone. That’s what Flight School does. It really teaches us the belief in the breakthrough you’re offering these people you’re talking with.

That has to be present, but he says, “Look, okay, we’ll just send you out something and [inaudible 00:22:53].” People are like, “Uh, sure.” This has happened a couple of times and I was like, “Wow, that’s fascinating.” They didn’t say, “Oh, yes, yes, yes. I’m definitely going to be there.” I think sometime … Actually not sometimes. Most often in order for it to be qualified, we’ve got to make sure that there’s, “Okay. You’re not going to be anywhere else, right? You’re going to show up to this meeting if I send you an invite, right? Okay. Okay. Perfect. Okay. I can count them.”

It’s a shootover. “If it works, great. If it doesn’t, I know I can put you back in ConnectAndSell and I will get ahold of you and we will find a time that ends up working out. Whether that is two, three, four, five times conversations later, we need to reschedule, great. If not, that’s okay.” First time works out, great. If not … And that actually feeds your passion because you realize that’s how a lot of people were.

They’re like, “Okay.” A lot of people aren’t in front of the calendar. Actually, no, I’m not. I’m in a meeting or I’m stepping out or I’m walking with my dog. I do cold calls when I take my son to the park during the day, right? [crosstalk 00:24:00].

Chris Beall (23:59):

How do you do that? Wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, wait. You can’t cold-call [crosstalk 00:24:03]-

Cherryl Turner (24:03):

This is life, Chris.

Chris Beall (24:05):

… you’re carrying your computer around and you got a phone and then when your son needs something, what do you do? Throw it all up in the air? How do you do that? That’s craziness.

Cherryl Turner (24:15):

It’s actually awesome. It has changed my life in several … Just … It’s amazing. No, it’s the ConnectAndSell mobile app that you guys have. I was honored to be able to try it out. It’s amazing. I still carry [Miskirk 00:24:36] with me. We have a park that’s just about nine blocks from our house. We have several actually, and he is like a farm dog. He needs to be outside and run around or he’s going to drive us all nuts.

It’s in between, after my meetings and in between cold calls. In front of my computer like, “Hey, we need to go take a breather.” I take my son on a stroller. He’s got his little balance bike. He loves taking that thing out. We go to the park. While he’s playing on the swing and slides and going, “Weee.” I’m cold-calling. In fact, there was this … I was doing that on Friday, last week, a couple of times.

There was another mom there with her kid and she started talking and when I started talking I said, “Hey, I need to let you know, I’m doing some cold calls right now for my work.” She was like, “Oh really?” I was like, “Oh yeah, it’s fabulous.” She couldn’t believe it. She was like, “I don’t even know what that is, but okay.” While we’re talking, I put my hand out and then I talked to the person and then it was fabulous. 

That is life. That is our new norm. We have people that still have to run a business. Now it’s almost harder because kids think when you’re home, “Oh, you’re just at my disposal, or this is …” Not even just kids. It’s spouses or whatever, or family that just don’t understand. Yes. That has been my new weapon of choice. It’s been awesome. I really enjoy it. Yeah. I mean, going back to your initial question, Chris, the two meetings I had set this morning were like that. 

It was, “Hey, I’ll send an invite out for two weeks out. That works well for you, great. If not, just send me over some alternatives and we’ll move it around.” They’re like, “Okay.” I’m like, “Perfect. Moving on.” It’s awesome.

Chris Beall (26:33):

This brings to mind something. If you were working as a BDR, right? And you were setting appointments just for somebody else, this would be a hard technique because you would be putting appointments on your AE’s calendar. Say it was paired up one to one, some people do that. You’ve got an account executive you’re working with and you’re doing the important part of the job, which is getting them in the meetings, getting the meetings and they’re doing the easy part, which is holding discovery meetings and closing business, which anybody can do. 

I actually believe that. Anyway, here you’re doing that and now you’re setting a bunch of interesting false positives. That is people who are not qualified, who would be showing up, at least you might’ve thought they weren’t qualified if you quizzed them further and got the truth out of them, which I don’t think actually happens in ambush calls, but we can pretend that it does. 

Then you are also setting meetings, a lot of which are going to be no-shows, because in fact, they’re going to be no-shows and declines and all sorts of stuff. Because your view is … If I can encapsulate it correctly, you believe, now that you’ve listened to Scott Webb’s approach, that operationalizing the relationship and going from if to when is the key to generating more relevant activity, which is thoughtful conversations, real conversations that go beyond the ambush.

Therefore, you’re not letting the ambush conversation carry the load of qualification, or even of assurance of attending the meeting. You’re just letting it open the door sufficiently that you go from an if, if we’re going to meet, to a when, when we’re going to meet. It reminds me of something I experienced this Saturday. Helen and I went down to a Mesquite furniture place, but it wasn’t a furniture place. It’s actually a mill. 

They have these Mesquite logs. I don’t know if anybody listening to this knows what a Mesquite tree is, but it’s really hard, very heavy wood, really beautiful, full of all these swirly patterns. If you want a dining room table that you’re going to treat as a piece of art in your house that you just bought here in Green Valley, Arizona, you definitely want a Mesquite table. I go with Helen down there, and here’s what Valerie, the owner, did.

She asked whether we were seeing what we wanted or whatever. There’s just pieces of wood around and then some examples of some finished tables. Helen said, “Well, yes, we’re looking for a dining room table.” She said, “Oh, okay.” Then she flipped open her order book, took a pen and had it in hand and said, “So what are the rough dimensions?” It was not asking the qualifying question. After all, all dimensions of tables are qualified, right? 

Big ones, little ones, and so forth. It wasn’t the question. The question was kind of irrelevant. It was the fact that she went from, if we were going to buy a dining room table from her to, when are we going to do it? Let’s get going on the process. She did it very gently and then went into a flash role a little bit later, as Oren Klaff would call it, about Mesquite. 

By the time she was done describing where the Mesquite came from, how they caught it, what the challenges were, what the three kinds of table edges are, how they use five layers of tung oil in order to make the table last forever, why the butterflies and the joints in the table lasts longer than even the wood and the wood is incredible, what some of the considerations might be, how you might go about buying. 

You might let us select the wood. You might come down and do it yourself. You might let us select it and you could come down and have a look. Some people like to see the project as it’s being done. It’ll take about this long, but these are the three considerations that would make it shorter and longer. By then, it’s like we’re in the hands of an expert and she’s operationalized the relationship by having the equivalent of the calendar, in this case, the order book, in hand and she’s writing in there. 

When we were finished with the conversation, here’s the piece of paper that looks suspiciously like an order for a table that doesn’t cost much more than a small car. Here we are just going, “Huh.” We ran into somebody else later, a different furniture store I won’t mention and it’s like, “Oh, yours are cheaper? Well, they must not be as good as Valerie’s are.” Right? Through this whole process, right? She did that and I was really impressed.

I discussed it with Helen afterwards. I said, “That is the opposite of selling after the close.” I think when we’re setting appointments, especially in a BDR role, our boss is telling us to sell after the close because the close is that little yes or the not not no. The not no, not not now, but not no, that allows you just to say, “I’ll send you an appointment and if that doesn’t work, we’ll figure it out.”

Cherryl Turner (31:45):

Yeah.

Chris Beall (31:46):

That it’s a step on the journey instead of a, I gotcha. Do you sense the difference between what you do now? You’re a full cycle rep setting appointments for yourself. Does that give you freedom to engage the way Scott Webb has figured out how to engage? Which by the way, everybody … Okay. The average conversion rate among reps out there is 3% conversation to meeting.

Scott’s is 72.4%, but that’s only because he’s dragging along an early tail of those that were only 25%. His current number is more in the 80s or 90s perhaps. If you think about that, any of you boss types watching, think an AE setting appointments for themselves, getting two appointments a day in about 30 minutes of work, two or three a day in 30 minutes of work, has this freedom to do this.

If you’re managing BDRs and SDRs, maybe you should let them have that freedom too. How would you do that though? It’s tricky, isn’t it?

Cherryl Turner (32:52):

It is. I think because of the mindset of where most leadership is, right? There’s always this pressure that is pushed up and down the chain as kind of …. You know those Chinese finger traps? That’s what it feels like sometimes, because they’ve got to hit certain numbers and you’re representing them. Then they’ve got to send that up the chain and then the chain isn’t happy so they send that back down.

So there’s this constant conflict that I’ve experienced in my own career with that. I knew there was a better way. I wasn’t necessarily coached that way, but I knew there was a better way because we’re not robots talking and doing business with robots. I don’t care how much great AI a company has. We’re not going to be replaced by robots. This fear that … It’s not, because we are human.

If this freedom … In fact, before I even came on with you, Chris, over to sell Flight School, you and I had a conversation because I was talking about this other company I was wanting to bring in on to ConnectAndSell. There’s this freedom that almost empowers you almost like a sense of liberation that, “Now I can relax and do what I do well, which is selling.” Most reps that are in a position, they do.

They are good at selling. They just are awkward with the first conversation and they can’t get out of their own way if they can’t get past that. If I’m okay to show you, prospect, that we will find a time when it ends up being okay for you, that shows them, “Wow, I’m actually talking to another human being.” It lowers the stress level on their end too. That’s [crosstalk 00:34:48]. That’s okay. You’re totally fine. 

In fact, the meeting that I set this morning, that was the case. He was like, “Yeah. I’m sorry, I got pulled into this other … I’m covered for a manager.” Et cetera. I said, “Totally fine. That is the end of this work.” He’s like, “That’s perfect. Yeah. Go ahead and set it for this week.” It was, “Okay. Awesome. Good luck with the remainder of your week.” It allowed them to relax also.

What is interesting is there’s this pressure you’ve got to qualify in advance. That’s what I was brought up on my sales career. You’ve got to know they’re almost too qualified before you get them on the discovery meeting. There is no possible way you can find that out before a discovery meeting. Sometimes it takes two or three of those to find that out because they’re still warming up to you. 

They don’t know if they want to completely trust you to divulge the skeletons out of the closet and everything else that’s going on internally, and especially with COVID and all the disruption that’s happened in the market, that’s even more so. I hope that any senior leadership that is hearing this one would allow … And the AEs respectfully, if you have an SDR setting for an AE, respect the SDR to know if they don’t show up, we’ll get them back on.

Chris Beall (36:11):

Yeah. [crosstalk 00:36:11]-

Cherryl Turner (36:11):

If you are using smart technology like ConnectAndSell, right? It’s-

Chris Beall (36:15):

Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I think this is the main thing ConnectAndSell enables, this relaxation into the situation where you can both be human. I really do think that that’s like the hidden gift, which shouldn’t be considered to be hidden because it’s the essence of being able to forge new relationships that could lead to something of value being exchanged.

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“Everybody knows that the flow of discovery meetings is the constraint on their business.” So states Chris Beall, CEO of ConnectAndSell, as he and Corey Frank, our two Market Dominance Guys, continue their interview with Matthew Forbes, Head of Strategic Accounts at ConnectAndSell. Together, they explore the epiphany that is behind Matt’s recent 4-times uptick in his call-to-meeting ratio. So, what is it that increased that flow for Matt recently, and how can others adopt what he learned so that they too can increase the number of meetings they set?

“I think we let people off the hook,” Matt says, “because they’re busy.” It’s second-nature to get apologetic or back down when the prospect starts making noises like, “Not now” or “Call back later.” But Matt’s epiphany about his true belief in the value of the discovery meeting and in the value of ConnectAndSell for the person he’s talking to, has changed the way he delivers his message. “You’ve got to have the right words, but the words only get you so far.” As Matt explains, if you truly believe in what you’re offering, your tone of voice will communicate that belief. As you’ll hear in this week’s Market Dominance Guys’ episode, “This Is What Makes All the Difference.”

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The complete transcript of this episode is below:

Corey Frank (01:39):

At my last company, I think Chris, you were there a number of times, you walk in, and one of the things I had on the sales floor was a big sign in all caps that said “No tourists.” And we find in our profession that there’s so many tourists who like to dabble. “Well, I can get five grand across town on an extra base over here, Hey, they’re paying an extra 12 points on a rip on a commission over here. I’m going to end, right.”

And you have, these tourists would just kind of go, and the product’s irrelevant. And so they’re mercenaries, they’re tourists. And because there’s no barriers to entry in our profession, right? There’s no MCAT, or GMAT, or LSAT, we had to go through. You have to go through an interview with another salesperson. Maybe there’s a personality test, we slide through. And it sounds like the baseline, the table stakes is “Can I convert 5% of my conversations to meetings?” And for Matt, your client that you were mentioning, for that gentleman to do 28% versus five, they’re doing over five times the head count on one person.

And then you combine that with the weapon ConnectAndSell, I mean, forget about that. I mean, you have an amplific effect here that is staggering.

Matthew Forbes (02:49):

Well, I’ll tell you I always enjoy ConnectAndSell. I like talking to people every six or eight minutes and not doing any of the nonsense work, but I really liked it on Friday. Now granted there was a couple of dollars on a spiff on the line, and I’m slacking and everybody else and making fun of them, because I’ve been here for nine years and I have that personality and that was fun. But that was the most fun I’ve had on ConnectAndSell in an awfully long time or ever.

I think people would hear this and go like, “Oh yeah. Okay. That’s that sounds pretty cheesy. Like, yeah next. I believe in your soul. Yeah. I believe like, okay.” You have to stop and inspect. I don’t think I’ve ever spoken to any of my bosses or Chris, or any CEO of any company and actually like sat down and reflected. I don’t think I meant to. I just, I had a scotch, there was a fire and that’s all I could think about for a couple hours was like, “Do you re like … You know you do.”

It, wasn’t a question of whether I do or not. It’s almost like the self awareness of no, no, no, you do. You really do. How come you’re not coming from that place? And it was like, “Okay.” And I don’t think it’s so simple. And I think a lot of people are going to go, “Yeah, whatever.” I can tell you right now, it’s different. It’s really, really different. And anybody who’s willing to spend the time and reflect on that, even if you think you believe, really sit down, grab a scotch, maybe two, you might have to really question yourself in a way that I didn’t think I was going to. Again, I’ve been here for nine years. How could I not believe, Corey, come on. I’m sitting there telling Chris like, “Oh, of course I believe, Chris, don’t be silly.” And I did, but I was unaware of how deep that really was. So it’s kind of hard to explain to people.

Corey Frank (04:33):

A lot of folks would say belief system is either based off of increased curiosity, or it’s based off of outcomes, or that this epiphany is now that, hey you are truly in charge of your own future. Or as you had said, Matt, that you grew an altruistic bone in your body overnight, and you realize that you’re a little bit of a savior, a prophet, in your own world, and these folk desperately need it. Where would you say that emanated from? Because you’re selling the same product for nine years, you woke up one morning and you …

Matthew Forbes (05:04):

I think we let people off the hook. I think we talked to somebody, and we have a conversation, and we let them off the hook because they were busy or they did this or that, or the other thing. And I don’t think I let them off the hook. I think that my tonality in our opener was different. I mean, it wasn’t like, “Hey, I believe we’ve discovered a breakthrough.” I mean, I slowed it way down. Right. And I really hit those notes, and it made a difference.

And I think it would be an altruistic bone. It’d be a big bone Corey, I’m 68. I don’t know if it’s necessarily that, but there’s a little bit of that. Whoever I call who has never heard of us, should hear about us. It doesn’t mean it’s right for them. It doesn’t mean they should run out and buy it or go do a test drive.

I mean, as a sales guy, I suppose I hope they do, but truly they just need to hear about it. They just need to know that it exists. And that piece of me came out in the last week, and it was growing. That’s why I looked at those numbers. And the Friday afternoon blitz, by the way, was five meetings for 14 conversations, in an hour and 45 minutes. I was looking at the whole week before.

But I got to tell you, five meetings. I mean, I got off the phone, and granted, it was the most ridiculous day, I had actually made a LinkedIn post about it. I had eight or 10 meetings lined up. I mean, my brain was mush, but I got off the phone. I’m like, “I know I booked two test drives. Life is good. I closed a deal. And I set five meetings. It’s a Friday. You’ve got to be kidding me. If I could do half of that every day of the week. I wouldn’t be the number two guy. I’d be the number one guy.” Maybe I will be the number one guy. We’ll see.

Chris Beall (06:48):

We will see. Well, what’s interesting, to me, about this is this I went to kind of a new level with the whole question of the impact of belief, when one of our customers, a recent customer. And I don’t know if he wants me to say his name, so I’m not going to say his name, but he’s the chief development officer of a big, big company.

And he and one of his people in his business that he works closely with really believed that nothing happens in business until somebody has a phone conversation with someone. So we had done a test drive and halfway through the test drive, his team had produced zero meetings. That’s okay in a ConnectAndSell test drive, but it wasn’t okay in this one, for me. It just wasn’t, there was something about it. With this kind of leadership. I just thought, “Hey, let’s just go ahead and introduce the breakthrough script a little tighter. Let’s tighten it up a little bit.”

So I went through a mini messaging workshop with them in the middle of a test drive, at lunch, and they set five meetings in the afternoon, and that was nice. And afterwards they said, “Well, we’re big. We want to buy a lot. Like we don’t want to buy a quarter million vials a month.” And I said, ‘no, you’re not good enough. You’re not good enough. I listened to your people, and they’re good, there’s a lot of talent, but you guys could do better. And I really want you to just take a little flight school. $9,500, let’s put six people through flight school. Choose your six best. And let’s see what we can do. Let’s make a shining star.”

So that shining star will sustain us as we go through the difficulties of bringing in something new, because we’ll know what can be done. So we went ahead and did that. Here’s what surprised me. The chief development officer was the lead user in the flight school. And he called me one day. And I was out for, guess what, a barefoot run up in Port Townsend, Washington, along Discovery Bay. And he said, “Chris, I just had kind of an epiphany.” And I said, “What is it?” He said, “I just, that I don’t believe sufficiently in the potential value of the meeting for this person, to insist that they take the meeting. So I’m going to shift my mindset right now. I’m about to get on … “

And get this. I mean, this guy’s a big, big dog, at a big company. He gets on ConnectAndSell with his team and leads from the front, always, a hundred percent of the time, including when he’s in airports and all sorts of things like that.

He says, I’m going to get on. I’m going to see what happens with the mindset that goes like this, “It is wrong of me. It is my failure to help somebody, if I allow them to not take a meeting, take 15 minutes of their life to hear what it is that we’ve discovered.” And he called me back in 35 minutes, four for four.

Since then he’s converted 78.5% of his conversations to meetings.

Corey Frank (06:48):

78%.

Matthew Forbes (09:52):

[inaudible 00:09:52].

Chris Beall (09:52):

78.5%, 78.5%. Now he does some other things though. He believes so much in this, that he doesn’t insist that they super commit to the meeting, just that they will accept an invitation, because he’s going to pour those invitations back into ConnectAndSell, and talk to them if they don’t attend the meeting. So he believes so much, that he’s even going to let them off the hook and put them back on the hook and, and eventually talk to them. He’s patient about it.

So his net show rate is 85%, which is remarkable. We all know that getting net show rates above 75% is quite challenging, right? So it’s a kind of funny act of faith to say, “I’m not going to insist that you swear in blood, that you’re going to come to the meeting. I’m just going to go ahead, and we agreed that you’re going to come to the meeting and I’ll send you the invitation, and by the way, I’m busy. I got something to do. Boom, I’m out of here. Right?” So it’s, it’s very interesting. When you see this point of view taken to the extreme, and this guy’s an extremist. I played golf with him the other day, and I got a picture of what that really means. So he’s an extreme kind of guy, right? And he expresses this in the insistence mindset that goes to the meeting, through the meeting, and forever, and it’s all about making sure that this person has a shot at learning something that will change their life, or might change their life. And I really think that’s not what we teach in sales. It’s just not.

Matthew Forbes (11:25):

No one talks like … Who talks like this? Nobody. Turns out, this is actually the stuff that really matters. You’ve got to have the right words, no doubt. And we’re really good at teaching people, the right words, Chris, at this point, but this is definitely the next level.

Corey Frank (11:42):

The other side of the card. Is that the words are gets you so far Matt, right? But I think today’s customers want more than just a talking brochure, and a brochure doesn’t necessarily have belief. We’ve talked about this. Chris, how many bits of information are in an email? How many bits in a brochure, how many bits in a website, versus how many bits in a conversation, and how many even more bits to get to this elusive 600,000 bits to trigger that trust factor, RNA insistence minded, a belief minded conversation. And I think that they want to feel that connection, that part of the … That as Oren, our previous guest talked about this.

Can you introduce enough skepticism, where you understand that you have their care and feeding of the buying process is acknowledged, they’re looking for signals that it’s safe to engage in you in a dialogue, all of that thing goes into this thing of trust here. And it sounds like with the right tone, Matt, that you’ve established, and Chris, and what this gentleman does for the 78.5% is, could you argue, you as a scientist Chris, that the level of entropy, if you will, if I nail the screenplay, and if I nail the tone, my variables of entropy are dropping significantly, and I’m making this a whole heck of a lot less complex than it needs to be?

Chris Beall (13:07):

Yeah. I think you’re taking variability out for the prospect, and that’s what they need. Oren says this all the time. The prospect needs certainty. They need certainty. And certainty comes from the removal of uncertainty, because nothing generates more uncertainty than being cold called. I mean, that’s a lot of uncertainty, which way this thing’s going to go. And so what do you do? You seek certainty by getting out of the call with your self image intact.

That’s the starting point. We always go back to that ambush moment, where the problem at hand is you. You are the problem. And by the way, believing that and believing that’s a good, most reps never get past that. Believing that it’s the greatest thing in the world, that you are the problem you, the calling rep or the problem, that that is the rock that you stand on, that you were the problem.

It’s like, there are different sorts of religious beliefs out there, right? There’s all sorts of foundations of religion. There’s one that starts with the notion that birth, sickness, old age, and death, there they are. That’s bedrock. Now what? That’s how Buddhism works. And you can’t kind of say, “Well no. I’m not going to be born, and I’m not going to be sick. I’ll never get old, I’ll never die” So there’s good bedrock there, right?

So, the fear that the ambushed party has of you, the invisible stranger, who’s ambushed them, and the certainty that what they want, they all want the same thing, to get out of this call with their self-image in tech. That’s what they’re looking for, right?

Chris Beall (15:16):

And your willingness to accept that position in their service. This is the problem. When I tell people, “This is what you need to accept.’ And they go, “Okay”, and they try to trick themselves into it. I’ll try to make some mental tricks happen. It’s like, no the why behind it is, in their service, because you truly believe in the potential value of the meeting that you’re offering, in all circumstances, including the one that you’ll say six minutes in “There’s no reason for you to continue to even learn this.”

Corey Frank (15:47):

Sure, sure.

Chris Beall (15:49):

Even that one, because it’s potential value, not certain value. If you want to offer the reduction of uncertainty for somebody else, you have to eat a massive amount of uncertainty of yourself. That’s the service that you’re doing. You eat the uncertainty, so that the prospect doesn’t have to experience uncertainty.

That’s the essence of sales. That is what you do. You gobble up uncertainty, and you endure the pain of the uncertainty, so that the other person can advance towards the unknown and make it known. That’s what you’re doing, as a sales person. That’s the fundamental core act of sales. And yes, you’re right, Matt. People don’t talk like this. But if they’re serious about the stuff they do talk about, they talk about winning, and they talk about putting up big numbers, they talk about killing it, crushing it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. If you’re really serious about that stuff, you kind of owe it to yourself to look at how human beings really work.

Corey Frank (16:46):

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Hustle porn is a dangerous thing, and it has absolutely no nutritional value. Kind of like the old fruit Stripe gum. Remember we used to have as kids, right? You just go through a whole pack because you’d take a couple of bites and all of a sudden the sugar is long gone. It looked good, it smelled good, but you wouldn’t want to have it for dinner.

And the study of bio physiology and why people have their bones in their nose, and why paints left and right, and all the stuff that we talked about, Chris, early on in our [inaudible 00:17:14]. I think that’s the key to kind of discovering this part of the craft that unfortunately it’s tough. Those are tough truths. Those are tough truths, Chris, that you had mentioned.

I think you’d agree with me, Matt, that I am the bearer of this uncertainty. I have the burden of this uncertainty. I willingly do it every day as a cold caller. Our colleague Ryan Recert, I think is one of the unsung heroes of our profession for eating the frog every day, publicly. And James Thornburg, the granddaddy, the King of cold calling himself, what he does every day. And it’s folks like that who are pushing sales thought leadership beyond just “I love uncle Zig Ziglar.” But beyond just fire up in the morning or Gary V videos.

Matthew Forbes (18:01):

So, well, I tell you while we were talking, I looked at some of the other guys on my team. Was this just me? Was this just an aberration? Did this just happen? Is this going to go away next week? I’m getting my second COVID shot on Thursday. Like, will, I wake up on Monday and not be able to set meetings? Oh my God.

So here’s the story. Rich, great guy, great sales guy. Last year booked meetings at 8%. Rich, hopefully, you don’t care that I said that. Rich, on Friday, after going through flight school, now does rich believe what I believe in my soul? I don’t know. But he went through flight school and they changed his tone. They changed how he was attacking the script.

He went from 9%, on Friday Rich booked meetings at 28.6%. So it’s not just me. Mark Hodgeson 7.5% last year, Mark Hodgeson, 19%. Does not suck when all you’re talking about is going through a flight school and having someone talk to you about the psychology of the script you’re already using, and what’s important and why. And then I think what I came to was sort of that next-level piece of it. But yeah, I think you and Chris’s perspective, I think you can manufacture this stuff. I think you really can.

Corey Frank (19:17):

So manufacturing, meaning, if you had a new team of BDRs that are starting under you Matt and Chris, and a killer product, I can even learn again, the breakthrough script, pre play, the 27 seconds. What’s the piece that I absolutely positively have to show up for that from an atomic weight perspective has more to do with eliciting that extra three, five X, that Mark and rich top-shelf sales folks, for sure that, that they got out of this thing? What would you say it would be?

Matthew Forbes (19:52):

Yeah, it’s the flight school. I mean, Donny Crawford explaining the Psychology. I mean, it’s our script for heaven’s sakes. We should know this stuff. I mean, come on. I mean, we do these things all the time for our customers, but to really sit us down and say, “Here’s why you say this word.” I wasn’t even on the first flight school I was in Florida on vacation. I said, “Okay, honey, I’ll go back. I’ll watch the call. It’ll be an hour.”

It was over two hours. I think it was two and a half hours of Chris just talking about the script, and spending 20 minutes on it, why did we say this word? And here’s what it means. And here’s the reason and the why behind it and let’s get into it. And why not that word? Here’s this. And just going through that process and understanding that makes a huge difference, and really coming in vocally.

I’m not going to say that everybody faked it, the tonality piece. I think we changed their tonality piece, but I think that’s one step closer to, yeah I’m not letting you off the hook. Not because my boss is watching. Not because I want to book a meeting and it’s good for me, but because it’s good for you. The words Chris has used, I mean it’s Chris. I mean, I have to listen to these podcasts twice. I work for the guy, right? But Chris, what do you always say? The potential value of the meeting for the person you’re talking to. Like, that means very little to me as a sales guy. I’ve heard that a lot. And I think this is of it.

Chris Beall (21:14):

Matt, because we see meetings, as a sales guy, we see them as a form of currency. It’s a form of validation of [inaudible 00:21:22]. You pay your mortgage off with the meetings. And sometimes we forget to have that empathy on the other side, I believe,

Matthew Forbes (21:27):

Oh, a hundred percent. But I just never really dug deep. And like, do you really believe that? And this is what I say to my customers. In their soul, why does that guy 28? And the other guy is 10, my customer? Because one guy bleeds green. That’s the only possible reason because the second you start talking about what you do and you use category language on a cold call, you’re off the cold call. You’re going to get “I’m all set” all day long. That’s just how cold calling is.

So it’s not product knowledge, right? It’s literally one guy bleeds green, and does not let the other guy off the phone. And not in a Jordan Belfort way, not like that. But he really believes that he’s going to help that school. Because that’s who he calls. Because he does. And if anybody’s listening, and they can get their team to that, you just bought yourself double the amount of inside sales reps you have.

Chris Beall (22:20):

At least.

Matthew Forbes (22:20):

Because they’re going to book 2X, for sure.

Corey Frank (22:23):

Absolutely. You have to fall in love, it sounds like what you’re saying is, and Chris you’ve talked about this too is, can you fall in love with your craft? Can you fall in love with the individual nuances of your craft? I don’t own a Ferrari at this particular moment, but I took a Ferrari tour when I was in Italy. And it’s not a big factory for those who are listening, who’ve taken the factory … But every aspect from the stitching to Enzo Ferrari’s vision, that he really didn’t even want to radio in the first couple of Ferrari versions, because it would diminish the sound that you hear when you are shifting from second to third to fourth, that was music enough for Enzo Ferrari. What do you want to pollute it for by listening to Drake, right?

If you don’t buy a Ferrari to get from point a to point B, you are a true connoisseur of the craft of motor racing, of motor movement, of engineering excellence. And to hear the shifting and the nuances, and the horsepower, you are falling itself, and you’re falling in love, every time you downshift, or you hit that clutch.

And I think that from our profession to almost … Matt, you almost sound like you’re describing an out-of-body experience, where you separated yourself from Matt, listening to Matt, while Matt is delivering the phone call, and you’re able to judge yourself, in real time, and correct, if needed, in real-time, an out of body truly experienced. And I think that’s clearly … I can see you getting from seven to eight in a couple of days, maybe your list gets in the jet stream, and you get to 10, 11%. But to have top-shelf rep after top-shelf connoisseur goes to 27, 28%, let alone 78%, there’s a there’s something in the water.

Matthew Forbes (24:19):

Yeah, there is. It’s listening to Chris for two and a half hours, and then actually listening to Chris. I can’t believe I actually listened to Chris like deep down inside. [crosstalk 00:24:30].

Corey Frank (24:31):

You can hear Chris, or you can listen to Chris. Two different things.

Matthew Forbes (24:35):

Might be the first time I’ve ever heard him. I don’t know. We’ll see.

Corey Frank (24:39):

Well, listen, I don’t know how many hundreds of hours I’ve had to listen to Chris in the last couple of [inaudible 00:24:44]. But, we won’t … Now that we’re up against the clock, and we’re going to get the hook on time here any minute. So I think everybody has done listening to … Certainly, well past done listening to me, Matt, it was an absolute pleasure having you on. A journey of promise now, I’m sure. The way you made money, the way you service your clients, and the reciprocal way that you make money, last year, last month, is the enemy of how you make money today, and going forward.

Matthew Forbes (25:13):

I believe that.

Corey Frank (25:14):

And that is the villain of meandering, touristy, you don’t have nine years of experience. You have one year, nine times, right? Or you have six months, 18 times. Like a lot of us go in and out of love. And I think you found the secret portal to basically do the cloning of formats over the period of a Friday afternoon.

Matthew Forbes (25:36):

It’s like 1200 pounds. That’s a lot of mass. I mean, let’s be clear. That’s a lot.

Corey Frank (25:41):

[inaudible 00:25:41] 30 feet, six-foot. What are you? 6’8″, right? So that’s like-

Matthew Forbes (25:44):

[crosstalk 00:25:44] I mean, as far as tonnage goes, it was a very productive-

Corey Frank (25:47):

Well, if it doesn’t work out, you could probably get a job at a circus. So that’s the one thing-

Matthew Forbes (25:50):

Oh, my middle name is Carney. I mean that’s enough said, right? I mean, there you go.

Corey Frank (25:55):

That’s right. Well, beautiful. Well, thank you Chris. Thank you, Matt. This is another episode of the Market Dominance Guys. Thanks for listening.

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      CASSi

      CASSi Better Phone Numbers

      Uses AI and our knowledge of phone numbers to enrich your contact data with the best, most accurate phone numbers

      CASSi Fast Numbers

      Quickly identifies and prioritizes the most promising phone numbers.

      CASSi AI Coach

      Automated scoring of conversations with coaching insights and examples surfaced.

      CASSi | Transcription & Notes

      Leveraging the power of AI to summarize conversation notes and suggest follow up text.

      Focus Features

      Live Coaching

      Listen live to rep and coach in realtime.

      Targeting & Analytics

      Supports visibility into your account based motion.

      Pipeline Attribution

      Instant access to measure demonstrable ROI from you ConnectAndSell investment.

      Conversation Acceleration

      Only reliable way to ensure your team is having enough conversations in order to meet and exceed their number.

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